The ULTIMATE MUZZLE-LOADER!
- Thread starter RMulhern
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Pretty cool.
When I was shifting to a county that didn't allow rifles for deer hunting, I seriously considered these. Decided on a centerfire handgun instead. But this would have been my BP choice.
When I was shifting to a county that didn't allow rifles for deer hunting, I seriously considered these. Decided on a centerfire handgun instead. But this would have been my BP choice.
Roll-Yur-Own
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Why would anyone spend that much for a muzzleloader that still uses BP or BP subs like pyrodex?
You could get a savage smokeless for 20% of that price or even a "NULA" New Ultra Light Arms for $1500 which is a full custom smokeless Muzzleloader.
You could get a savage smokeless for 20% of that price or even a "NULA" New Ultra Light Arms for $1500 which is a full custom smokeless Muzzleloader.
Roll-Yur-Own
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The fact is the Savage doesn't shoot pyrodex or other BP subs as well as it shoots smokeless, but, I can't see any rifle shooting pyrodex pellets into 1/2" groups at 100 yards. So, why would anyone pay $2500 for a rifle that shoots pyrodex?
If you can't shoot smokeless then get a knight or TC.
If you can't shoot smokeless then get a knight or TC.
RMulhern
Well-Known Member
Smokeless vs the other!
Roll-Yur-Own
I don't think so! Savage....needs to go back to the drawing board with their so-called 'smokeless' ML! Smokeless powder is much more difficult to ignite than blackpowder and IMO....the breech-plug on the Savage is built with a lot of length to it such that the flashtube is much too long and even with the powders that Savage is recommending.....ignition is not consistant! The 209 primer just isn't hot enough to 'jump' 1 1/2" to lite things up...in a consistant manner. Think about this: In a regular smokeless powder case....the powder sits right atop the primer and a F215 primer lights the powder up quite well. The 'fire'....doesn't have to jump at all and ignition is excellent! Not so....with the design of the Savage and especially with a 209 primer!
Blackpowder is the MOST ACCURATE powder in the world! Bar none! And anyone that has done any reading of historical events involving shooting know about this! Blackpowder is used on battleships and one of those big guns can drop a round atop your head from 25 miles off and that's no BS! What gives folks the 'willies' about BP....is the fact that supposedly BP is corrosive and difficult to clean; tain't so....as for the cleaning goes and this thinking is a 'hold-over' from the old 'Hawken days' and info about breaking the rifle out of the stock and plunging the barrel out with hot water and soap! Might be so with a Hawken but with a barrel that has a removable breech plug or a BPCR....cleaning is easier than removing copper fouling from a smokeless barrel and if you shoot enough copper gilding bullets...you will eventually have copper fouling within the bore!
The basic reason we've seen the advent of the smokeless powder 'inlines' is because of 'Commercialism' and the fact that many folks just don't understand blackpowder or how to use it!!
FOLLOW-UP:
We worked with one of these rifles yesterday for several hours and at 100 yds. it will 'clover-leaf' 3 shots....if you hold it! At 200 yds. it will hold 1.75" for 5 shots....all day long! At 300 yds.....still no contest as it will easily hold 2.75" with an occasional 5 shot group going to 3.0"! That's shooting a 275 gr. bullet with the recommended sabots and using what????....225 grs. 777 substitute! Over the years I know guys that have purchased 3-4 so-called accurate 'muzzle-stuffers' with no telling how many $$$$ ****ed off trying to obtain a rifle that shot with consistant results; all to no avail! I have seen a few of these rifles that did shoot quite well but in the final analysis....if a guy wants to make a one-time purchase of a rifle that WILL DELIVER better than excellent accuracy...this may be the way to go and I dare say that $2500.00 would be CHEAP compared to 3-4 other rifles over a period of time! We didn't get to test back to 400 yds. but that's coming! Dark thirty caught us and we lost the light!
Roll-Yur-Own
I don't think so! Savage....needs to go back to the drawing board with their so-called 'smokeless' ML! Smokeless powder is much more difficult to ignite than blackpowder and IMO....the breech-plug on the Savage is built with a lot of length to it such that the flashtube is much too long and even with the powders that Savage is recommending.....ignition is not consistant! The 209 primer just isn't hot enough to 'jump' 1 1/2" to lite things up...in a consistant manner. Think about this: In a regular smokeless powder case....the powder sits right atop the primer and a F215 primer lights the powder up quite well. The 'fire'....doesn't have to jump at all and ignition is excellent! Not so....with the design of the Savage and especially with a 209 primer!
Blackpowder is the MOST ACCURATE powder in the world! Bar none! And anyone that has done any reading of historical events involving shooting know about this! Blackpowder is used on battleships and one of those big guns can drop a round atop your head from 25 miles off and that's no BS! What gives folks the 'willies' about BP....is the fact that supposedly BP is corrosive and difficult to clean; tain't so....as for the cleaning goes and this thinking is a 'hold-over' from the old 'Hawken days' and info about breaking the rifle out of the stock and plunging the barrel out with hot water and soap! Might be so with a Hawken but with a barrel that has a removable breech plug or a BPCR....cleaning is easier than removing copper fouling from a smokeless barrel and if you shoot enough copper gilding bullets...you will eventually have copper fouling within the bore!
The basic reason we've seen the advent of the smokeless powder 'inlines' is because of 'Commercialism' and the fact that many folks just don't understand blackpowder or how to use it!!
FOLLOW-UP:
We worked with one of these rifles yesterday for several hours and at 100 yds. it will 'clover-leaf' 3 shots....if you hold it! At 200 yds. it will hold 1.75" for 5 shots....all day long! At 300 yds.....still no contest as it will easily hold 2.75" with an occasional 5 shot group going to 3.0"! That's shooting a 275 gr. bullet with the recommended sabots and using what????....225 grs. 777 substitute! Over the years I know guys that have purchased 3-4 so-called accurate 'muzzle-stuffers' with no telling how many $$$$ ****ed off trying to obtain a rifle that shot with consistant results; all to no avail! I have seen a few of these rifles that did shoot quite well but in the final analysis....if a guy wants to make a one-time purchase of a rifle that WILL DELIVER better than excellent accuracy...this may be the way to go and I dare say that $2500.00 would be CHEAP compared to 3-4 other rifles over a period of time! We didn't get to test back to 400 yds. but that's coming! Dark thirty caught us and we lost the light!
Roll-Yur-Own
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Sharpsman, the muzzleloader in not hard to clean. But, if your shooting Pyrodex you have to clean it every time you use it. Not so with smokeless.
Most "black power" rifle owners shoot black powder subs anyway not actual black powder.
The savage is $500-700 and the gun you mentioned is $2500. I put my money on the savage. I shoot about 3/4" to 1.25" groups at 100 yards. I don't need to shoot it past 200 anyway, but I know guys who have taken game out to 300.
If you want to compare your gun to another muzzleloader, compare it to the NULA, "New Ultra Light Arms" the website is Ultra Light Arms - custom made rifles
They cost about $1500 and will shoot some amazing groups.
A muzzleloader will never be as consistant as a modern rifle. I'm not saying accurate, I'm saying consistent. First off, you will always have more flyers with a muzzleloader smokeless or not. It just the way it is. You are pouring powder down a barrel and pushing a bullet on top. Especially in a hunting situation when your adrenalin is pumping.
I'll stick with my savage before I spend $2500 for a gun that shoots pyrodex.
Most "black power" rifle owners shoot black powder subs anyway not actual black powder.
The savage is $500-700 and the gun you mentioned is $2500. I put my money on the savage. I shoot about 3/4" to 1.25" groups at 100 yards. I don't need to shoot it past 200 anyway, but I know guys who have taken game out to 300.
If you want to compare your gun to another muzzleloader, compare it to the NULA, "New Ultra Light Arms" the website is Ultra Light Arms - custom made rifles
They cost about $1500 and will shoot some amazing groups.
A muzzleloader will never be as consistant as a modern rifle. I'm not saying accurate, I'm saying consistent. First off, you will always have more flyers with a muzzleloader smokeless or not. It just the way it is. You are pouring powder down a barrel and pushing a bullet on top. Especially in a hunting situation when your adrenalin is pumping.
I'll stick with my savage before I spend $2500 for a gun that shoots pyrodex.
I must be looking in the wrong places! I never realised that all of the Benchrest records were with Black Powder! Who would have thunk-it !!
edge.
PS the Savage plug is as long as it is to get past the Barrel Nut. I have modified my breechplugs with a countersink that is about 0.800 deep which reduces the flame travel considerably.
1SHOT1KILL
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Sharpsman, let me give you some "facts" about the Savage, muzzleloader. I think I am more than qualified to give you the "facts" as I am the one who invented, patented, and worked with Savage to market it.
First of all, the breech plug is as long and short as it needs to be. Like edge said, and he has much more experince with the Savage 10ML-II than you ever will, the breech plug is long enough to get the powder charge area past the threads of the barrel nut, for maximum strength. The original 10ML, used a percussion module, that fit into a chamber in the breech plug. The 10ML-II kept the original specs of the 10ML breech plug, but did away with the module. The vent liner was designed to limit the amount of pressure and prevent excess pressure from blowing back into the module and/or primer.
As far as inconsistant ignition, goes in 17 years of shooting this exact same style breech plug, I can count the ignition failures on 1 hand, and still have enough to spare to pick my nose. The 1.5" breech plug works as designed and if one is at least 10% smarter than a lug nut, one will have 100% reliable ignition. Use the correct primers, the correct powders, and the correct sabot/bullet combination, you can hunt from the Artic to the Equator, with zero igniton failure. Drop the firing pin on an unloaded Savage 10ML-II, with just a Federal or a Winchester 209 primer inserted and you will see the flame out the end of the 24" barrel. You cannot tell me that the breech plug is to long and the flame is not getting to the powder charge. The 55,000+ rounds of smokeless powder muzzleloading, tells me you are blowing smoke on this subject.
The assinine qoute that BP is thge most accurate powder ever invented, may have been true prior to 1891. Like Edge said, if that were true every benchrest shooter in the world would be shooting it. As far as battleships use it, they as well as field artillery, use a BP booster charge on the base (the Red Pad) of the main powder increment. It is just to aid in the ignition of the main smokeless powder charge.
To WSmitty01, I hate to break it to you, but you are dead wrong. In fact the total opposite is true, in that every year more and more states are allowing the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.
That all I have for now. Let me know if I can clarify anything else. Out here.
Bill Ball
First of all, the breech plug is as long and short as it needs to be. Like edge said, and he has much more experince with the Savage 10ML-II than you ever will, the breech plug is long enough to get the powder charge area past the threads of the barrel nut, for maximum strength. The original 10ML, used a percussion module, that fit into a chamber in the breech plug. The 10ML-II kept the original specs of the 10ML breech plug, but did away with the module. The vent liner was designed to limit the amount of pressure and prevent excess pressure from blowing back into the module and/or primer.
As far as inconsistant ignition, goes in 17 years of shooting this exact same style breech plug, I can count the ignition failures on 1 hand, and still have enough to spare to pick my nose. The 1.5" breech plug works as designed and if one is at least 10% smarter than a lug nut, one will have 100% reliable ignition. Use the correct primers, the correct powders, and the correct sabot/bullet combination, you can hunt from the Artic to the Equator, with zero igniton failure. Drop the firing pin on an unloaded Savage 10ML-II, with just a Federal or a Winchester 209 primer inserted and you will see the flame out the end of the 24" barrel. You cannot tell me that the breech plug is to long and the flame is not getting to the powder charge. The 55,000+ rounds of smokeless powder muzzleloading, tells me you are blowing smoke on this subject.
The assinine qoute that BP is thge most accurate powder ever invented, may have been true prior to 1891. Like Edge said, if that were true every benchrest shooter in the world would be shooting it. As far as battleships use it, they as well as field artillery, use a BP booster charge on the base (the Red Pad) of the main powder increment. It is just to aid in the ignition of the main smokeless powder charge.
To WSmitty01, I hate to break it to you, but you are dead wrong. In fact the total opposite is true, in that every year more and more states are allowing the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.
That all I have for now. Let me know if I can clarify anything else. Out here.
Bill Ball
esshup
Well-Known Member
Edge, I didn't know you were here. Bill, Welcome! I still keep tabs on Dougs and the SM forum, and still have the MLI's and II's, but I'm leaning towards longer range shooting. I still use the Savage when the seasons permit, and I wouldn't have gotten into shooting a muzzleloader if it weren't for the Savage and smokeless powder.
Edge, the breechplug is still working just fine!
Edge, the breechplug is still working just fine!
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It sounds like we have some guys who know what they are talking about. Great! gun)
esshup
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Well, sorta.... Maybe Edge will enlighten us on shooting the kitchen sink out of his Savage.
Maybe Edge will enlighten us on shooting the kitchen sink out of his Savage.Just to add 1 more thing concerning whether rifles are allowed during ML season, many States that don't allow smokeless also don't allow non percussion cap priming, must use all lead bullets, must have open ignition.
In those States the Ultimate would also not be legal, regardless of powder used.
edge.
In those States the Ultimate would also not be legal, regardless of powder used.
edge.
