I Need Some Advice - 28 Nosler

[Akhunting]

Hello all.

I have been a member for a couple of years but don't post often. Just a quick resume so you know a little about my experience. I started reloading when I was about 13 after I found an almost new Rock Chucker kit at a yard sale and taught myself how to reload after reading the RCBS manual front to back numerous times (yes, even the b.c. Tables in the back. Coincidentally, on a side note, I found out many years later that this was in the same little ranching community Fred Barnes started making bullets in his basement back in the 30s. That was over 25 years ago and in the meantime have reloaded 25-30 different cartridges ranging from .17 Rem up to .450 Ackley and for numerous different guns. I'm not an expert, but very proficient and somewhat competent. I have shot a lot and am a competent recreational shooter and hunting shot.

Now for my conundrum. I recently bought a 28 Nosler from a company with a good reputation for accurate rifles. The test target sent with the rifle shows a tiny little group (180 VLD Hunting, WLRM primer, Nosler brass, 81 gr Retumbo, 3.540 oal) and I got right in to breaking in the rifle and developing loads. Factory loads were hoohum and I thought I would be able to get something good for shots out to 800 +\- fairly easily. My goal was a 175 ELDX at 3100 fps which was pretty easy using Retumbo and then because of poor accuracy and powder fouling switched to H1000. The ELDXs would not shoot so I tried some 168 VLD Huntings and 175 ABLR (current bullet of choice) with better results. I have now tried numerous loads (~150 shots so far) with Retumbo and H1000 and have yet to get a consistent accurate load. I have tried a couple different charge weights at most lengths from SAAMI spec up to touching the lands. My main primer is some of my hoard of Federal 215 match but have tried cci 250 and some WLRs (did not have WLRM at the time) with similar results. I have some WLRMs to try now but waiting for the rain to stop. I finally thought I had a decent load (78.3 gr H1000 at 3.500" oal, 3075 avg, 14 es) that was pretty decent, ~2.25" at 340 yards, but the last time I took them out groups were 6" (main group ~2.5" with some big flyers).

I am beside myself, I have never had a gun shoot so erratic. I have had some 100 yard groups I could better with my muzzleloader and this gun is nothing short of erratic. The scope base was bedded, locktighted, and torqued. The rings lapped and locktighted. Tried two different scopes. Checked bedding. Brass is all within .005", flash holes trued, and primer pockets as well. Brass weighed within a grain. Powder within .1 gr.

I'm using Redding dies and since it is a hunting rifle I am FL sizing. I don't have a means to check runout accurately but maybe i got a bad die?

Some observations, powder fouling seems excessive, I have put in a lot of time brushing the bore (after different foaming cleaners and copper solvent) and am getting no fouling with a nylon brush and nitro solvent but a lot of black fouling using a bronze brush. I have never gotten a moderately clean patch following the bronze brush. I am beginning to think the new (Tipton) bronze brushes I am using are causing the black patches but have never had it to this degree in the past. Do I potentially have some hardened carbon fouling that is just a nightmare to get out? I cleaned it fairly well but probably not good enough during break in.

Have others had problems like this? Anybody have any ideas to check? Things to try?

I plan to recreate the test round once I get the bullets but have not had the chance yet. I am also going to test fresh powder and primers in my other loads. The 215 match primers have always been good but these are 3 years old, so? Never had problems with much older primers but I am trying everything.

If you read this far, thanks for reading my ridiculously long venting post.

 

[Lonewolf74]

That sucks for sure...I'm no expert but the first thing I would do is get in touch with the rifle builder and tell him what you have going on and see if he can help you trouble shoot.

If the rifle fouls badly I would suspect a burr in the throat or boar somewhere. Though it's not necessarily the case, I have a rifle that's a bear to clean but it shoots amazing for a factory rifle...so I'm not positive of the ryme or reason to the fouling deal.

I know I'm probably not much help but hope you get it figured it out.

 

[Kmccord]

I did see you posted using Large Rifle primer instead of Large Rifle Magnum, I would think the primer not being Magnum would not burn all of the powder, never use less than a magnum primer with an Ultra Magnum cartridge. As for age of primers, I have a custom made 28 Nosler and have been using my CCI 250 primers I purchased back in year 2000, they do not give me any problems and accuracy at 200yds is .525 with 180 VLD and .595 with 195 EOL, I have not had the time to work on accuracy verification at 400, 600, or 800 yds, but will verify before summer. I am using RL33 powder on the 195gr and used Retumbo on the 180gr, and am currently working on a load with RL33 for the 180gr. The velocity I am seeing on the 180's with Retumbo is averaging 3117fps with 80.7gr, the 195's are averaging 3093fps with 84.3gr of RL33. As for cleaning, I am not seeing a ton of fouling, I clean down to bare metal every 50-60 rounds, I always run a dry bore snake down the bore after every shooting session. To clean out carbon and copper I have been using Bore tech products, the carbon solvent and the copper solvent, sometimes, I will leave the copper solvent in the bore from 6 to 8 hours to help dissolve the copper. Another product that I have used with good results is Wipe Out. I will say Heavy carbon fouling to me is powder that was not fully burned.

 

[eshorebwhntr]

I think you have the right idea on trying to recreate the load that was given to you by the builder. I don't think the old primers are an issue. In that cartridge, either H1000 or Retumbo should work. Others may work and may work better but I would think you could get something satisfactory out of them. I wouldn't think that you would have hardened carbon fouling yet but if a local guy has a borescope that might be the best way to tell. I use all Boretec stuff too. Jags and brushes just so I feel confident about reading my patches and not getting false indicators.

I would probably try to get the barrel as clean as possible of carbon and copper and shoot 2 - 3 shot groups with the load the builder recommended. After cleaning the first 3 may be a little off but the next 3 should produce a group similar to the size of the target sent with the gun.

If that fails I would maybe ask the gunsmith to load you a few rounds from his lot of components just to rule out differences in powder, primer, and bullet lots. Or maybe just ask his recommendation of what to do. I think if its a good gunsmith and you approach him with the info you've shared here with the same good demeanor as it seems you have here (just wanting to get the gun figured out, not ****y or pointing fingers) I'd think he would be more than willing to help you.

As for oddball stuff...maybe inconsistent neck tension, check for barrel free float or any spots that are touching, check action screw torque, debris on the bolt face causing headspace issues, nicks in the crown on the barrel.

Also, are these shot from the magazine or single feed? If from the magazine the possible neck tension issue may cause the bullet seating depth to shift under recoil. Slim chance but worth a check I guess.

Good luck. Hope you get it figured out.

Also, if you need a few 180 VLD's to try just drop me a PM and we can work something out.

 

[SnakeRiverEric]

My 28 is a copper fouler and loses accuracy fairly quickly. Once I get it cleaned the accuracy comes back. You need to leave the patch out/wipe out in the barrel overnight.
Keep cleaning till you get a clean patch.

 

[Akhunting]

That sucks for sure...I'm no expert but the first thing I would do is get in touch with the rifle builder and tell him what you have going on and see if he can help you trouble shoot.

If I can't get it to shoot after exhausting all reasonable possibilities I certainly plan on it! I want to recreate the proof round first and see what happens so I have something to fall back on.

 

[Akhunting]

I did see you posted using Large Rifle primer instead of Large Rifle Magnum, I would think the primer not being Magnum would not burn all of the powder, never use less than a magnum primer with an Ultra Magnum cartridge.... As for cleaning, I am not seeing a ton of fouling, I clean down to bare metal every 50-60 rounds, I always run a dry bore snake down the bore after every shooting session. To clean out carbon and copper I have been using Bore tech products, the carbon solvent and the copper solvent, sometimes, I will leave the copper solvent in the bore from 6 to 8 hours to help dissolve the copper. Another product that I have used with good results is Wipe Out. I will say Heavy carbon fouling to me is powder that was not fully burned.

I only used the WLR for a 5-shot string, I felt safe knowing relative "heat" of the Winchester primers is high. Velocity was comparable and es was pretty tight.

I have been cleaning ridiculousy well every 10-20 shots. I am getting very little copper fouling but apparent carbon fouling seems high.

This picture shows a patch after a few passes of a bronze brush with good ol' Hoppe's #9. This is probably the 15th time I have got a patch this dirty this cleaning cycle (no shots and ~15 cleaning iterations before this patch). This is why I am wondering about the brush creating this "fouling" and not really having a dirty bore. It looks pretty clean but it is hard to tell looking through the breach or in the muzzle. There are light streaks I can see in the shoulder of the lands on the dominant side of the twist.

 

[Akhunting]

I think you have the right idea on trying to recreate the load that was given to you by the builder. I don't think the old primers are an issue. In that cartridge, either H1000 or Retumbo should work. Others may work and may work better but I would think you could get something satisfactory out of them. I wouldn't think that you would have hardened carbon fouling yet but if a local guy has a borescope that might be the best way to tell. I use all Boretec stuff too. Jags and brushes just so I feel confident about reading my patches and not getting false indicators.

I would probably try to get the barrel as clean as possible of carbon and copper and shoot 2 - 3 shot groups with the load the builder recommended. After cleaning the first 3 may be a little off but the next 3 should produce a group similar to the size of the target sent with the gun.
Been trying, see previous post, I am to the point I am wondering if I am polishing out my lands
If that fails I would maybe ask the gunsmith to load you a few rounds from his lot of components just to rule out differences in powder, primer, and bullet lots. Or maybe just ask his recommendation of what to do. I think if its a good gunsmith and you approach him with the info you've shared here with the same good demeanor as it seems you have here (just wanting to get the gun figured out, not ****y or pointing fingers) I'd think he would be more than willing to help you.
I am hoping I can figure it out before that, but it is a viable option I will keep in my pocket

As for oddball stuff...maybe inconsistent neck tension, check for barrel free float or any spots that are touching, check action screw torque, debris on the bolt face causing headspace issues, nicks in the crown on the barrel.
Necks are tight and feel consistent during loading, barrel channel is clear, check, check, check...
Also, are these shot from the magazine or single feed? If from the magazine the possible neck tension issue may cause the bullet seating depth to shift under recoil. Slim chance but worth a check I guess.
Single feed
Good luck. Hope you get it figured out.

Also, if you need a few 180 VLD's to try just drop me a PM and we can work something out.

Thanks to everyone who has read and offered ideas. I have 4 different loads to try tomorrow maybe one is the winner?

 

[Akhunting]

My 28 is a copper fouler and loses accuracy fairly quickly. Once I get it cleaned the accuracy comes back. You need to leave the patch out/wipe out in the barrel overnight.
Keep cleaning till you get a clean patch.

As long as I don't use a bronze brush it looks good, one pas with a bronze brush and Hoppe's and I get a gray patch. I have easily ran 600 patches through this gun, wish I hadn't dumped the bucket to show it off. I use Sweet's, Butch's, Break Free, Hoppe's, and MPro7. Copper seems to clean up pretty easy, nylon brush and Sweet's or Butch's followed by a few patches seems to take care of the copper. Still wondering about the carbon though.

 

[Kmccord]

I only used the WLR for a 5-shot string, I felt safe knowing relative "heat" of the Winchester primers is high. Velocity was comparable and es was pretty tight.

I have been cleaning ridiculousy well every 10-20 shots. I am getting very little copper fouling but apparent carbon fouling seems high.

This picture shows a patch after a few passes of a bronze brush with good ol' Hoppe's #9. This is probably the 15th time I have got a patch this dirty this cleaning cycle (no shots and ~15 cleaning iterations before this patch). This is why I am wondering about the brush creating this "fouling" and not really having a dirty bore. It looks pretty clean but it is hard to tell looking through the breach or in the muzzle. There are light streaks I can see in the shoulder of the lands on the dominant side of the twist.

Have you tried a nylon brush? I know using copper solvent with a bronze brush will give false reading on copper fouling. Something else you may want to try is go back through a barrel break in procedure, try shooting once, then give thorough cleaning until no carbon or copper is present, repeat same scenario for five shots, then go to three shot group and clean, repeat same scenario three shot string five times, then switch to two five shot groups and clean twice. This will give you 30 rounds down the barrel with a good cleaning, it should help polish the bore and make cleaning easier. In the above scenario you must be sure all carbon and copper fouling is out prior to shooting the next round. I would definitely use a nylon brush over a bronze and I would try different cleaner, I had always used hoppes for cleaning until somebody turned me on to wipe out and that was head and shoulders over hoppes, when I ordered my 28 Nosler, the builder suggested I try Bore Tech Carbon remover and Bore Tech Copper solvent and do not use bronze brushes with the copper solvent, it will eat them. The bore tech is ammonia free as well. It works great or at least it did for me, cleaning is quick after the break in procedure. I hope you are able to get it worked out, the 28 Nosler is a very good rifle, I am very happy with mine.

 

[dsculley]

Bronze is a copper alloy, typically about 88% copper. I would bet that is where your "copper fouling" is coming from. You can test this by rubbing a patch saturated with the Hoppe's against the bronze bristles.

Since you are concerned about the barrel fouling, you can get a bore scope that you can attach to your phone (https://www.generixllc.com/products...dWG6Bbw6-tS8WuXZc-kbTicpPpMSeY3yQUaAlFG8P8HAQ). This one has a 5.5 mm tip and is under $30.00. A lot of them have a 7 mm tip.

 

[Kmccord]

Bronze is a copper alloy, typically about 88% copper. I would bet that is where your "copper fouling" is coming from. You can test this by rubbing a patch saturated with the Hoppe's against the bronze bristles.

Since you are concerned about the barrel fouling, you can get a bore scope that you can attach to your phone (https://www.generixllc.com/products...dWG6Bbw6-tS8WuXZc-kbTicpPpMSeY3yQUaAlFG8P8HAQ). This one has a 5.5 mm tip and is under $30.00. A lot of them have a 7 mm tip.

Have you tried this scope in your rifle? I was curious if you can get a good view of the rifling.

 

[MarkA]

SAAMI spec up to touching the lands.

With the LRAB's I found that in many guns they tend to like longer jump to lands. Do seating depth test the other way (shorter instead of longer) and i think you will be very surprised to see groups tighten up as you seat deeper. You said you tested at "SAMMI". Seat .025 deeper/shorter OAL, then .050 then .075 then .100 then even .125 and see what happens.

 

[Akhunting]

Have you tried a nylon brush? I know using copper solvent with a bronze brush will give false reading on copper fouling. Something else you may want to try is go back through a barrel break in procedure, try shooting once, then give thorough cleaning until no carbon or copper is present, repeat same scenario for five shots, then go to three shot group and clean, repeat same scenario three shot string five times, then switch to two five shot groups and clean twice. This will give you 30 rounds down the barrel with a good cleaning, it should help polish the bore and make cleaning easier. In the above scenario you must be sure all carbon and copper fouling is out prior to shooting the next round. I would definitely use a nylon brush over a bronze and I would try different cleaner, I had always used hoppes for cleaning until somebody turned me on to wipe out and that was head and shoulders over hoppes, when I ordered my 28 Nosler, the builder suggested I try Bore Tech Carbon remover and Bore Tech Copper solvent and do not use bronze brushes with the copper solvent, it will eat them. The bore tech is ammonia free as well. It works great or at least it did for me, cleaning is quick after the break in procedure. I hope you are able to get it worked out, the 28 Nosler is a very good rifle, I am very happy with mine.

I always use nylon brushes with my copper solvent. The bronze are for carbon fouling. I know there are a lot of better products than Hoppe's but have an affection for it and it is a decent carbon cleaner. I have been looking at the KG industries cleaners as well as the Bore Tech stuff. I live in the middle of nowhere, but next time in civilization I will see what I can find. I could just order online as well but just haven't got to it.

I have come to the conclusion that the Hoppe's is eating the Tipton brushes and leaving the gray "fouling". I have never had this happen before but the Tipton brushes are new to this gun and the alloy must be more reactive with the Hoppe's. It is a new bottle of Hoppe's as well. I looked in the trash and the patches that are a few days old take on a light blue when I know Butch's and Sweet's are showing no copper fouling present.

I like the gun and load, just need it to shoot now! I brought out 3 different recipes today and had one make a nice 1.75 tall x.85 wide group at 340 yards, now if I can get that same load to do it next time out that will be perfect!