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Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

 
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  #57  
Old 06-18-2009, 02:08 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Noel,

This is precisely my concern with your injecting this information into this thread. My article is a specific rebuttal to Barnes' article and test data. I make no claims about the performance of solid bullets that are outside my knowledge about the general performance of the Barnes bullets.

I commend you on your desire to develop and produce an improved solid bullet. I know absolutely nothing about your bullet and so I cannot make any conclusive or speculative judgments on its performance.

Your defense of your bullet is inconsistent with the subject of this thread. This inconsistency makes your statements seem as if they support Barnes' position (which you have stated you don't).

I will gladly debate you on the generalities of solid bullet performance. Frankly, I would hope that from these debates you could learn things that help you break this common perception.

Start another thread titled "The Solid Bullet Debate" and I will address your three comments.

Regards,
Eric
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  #58  
Old 06-18-2009, 02:15 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Phorwath, I was being literal. I am however at fault for not completely following through with the train of thought. The dismissal of terminal performance would be at the expense of shot placement. It would deviate from the boiler room norm to a CNS shot. (Central Nervous System). Even a bullet of extremely POOR terminal performance will have exceptional results. ie FMJ to the head or spine. The accuracy of the Berger, even if it were to perform terminally as a FMJ, would be useful to the long range hunter using CNS shots. My apologies for lack of description earlier.

I am not saying that we should be using a FMJ constructed bullet. I am just pointing out that they will kill. There are countless dead servicemen and enemy alike that can testify to the effectiveness of the FMJ design.

I have never encountered big game at the ranges you describe. I therefore have no experience with VLD performance at less than 100 yds. I am quite sure that the ram eventually would have expired from the first shot. Unless there is some hyper coagulopathy inherent to cervids, or some way to auto decompress bilateral pneumothoracies, that NBT was a prescription for death. Just not the instant type obviously.
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  #59  
Old 06-18-2009, 03:56 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Fair enough.

I don't target the brain or the CNS on any long shots. I don't even do that at 250 yds let alone past 600. I've never heard of anyone promoting those low-odds small-target aiming points for long-range game hunting. Why take an already challenging shot situation and make if more difficult by reducing the latitude for aiming error by selecting a head or CNS shot at long range? I've killed animals with head shots and every other sort of shot, using arrows, rifles and shotguns for a long time also.

To be clear, the sheep wasn't hit with a Berger or VLD-style bullet. That bullet was a .284 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. I too suspect the sheep would more likely have died than not had I simply returned the next day, but death alone was not the objective. My goal is to dispatch the game using methods that kill in a fashion, and within a time frame, that provides high assurance the game is not only dead, but recoverable and the meat salvagable.

An accurate bullet without kill-recoverable expanding terminal performance when employed on solid, yet non-CNS, body hits has no place in my long-range hunting game plan. Terminal performance (meaning an expanding bullet) is just as important as accuracy in my long-range hunting. I can't separate one from the other because if bullet performance lacks either accuracy or expansion, my long-range hunting would be over and I'd be back to archery.
  #60  
Old 06-18-2009, 04:34 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Sorry P, I thought I was clear when I wrote NBT shorthand for Nosler Ballistic Tip. It apppears as though the bullet "acted" as if it were a FMJ. I never meant to insinuate that FMJs or head shots etc played a role in the LRH game. I meant that it is possible and a VLD could in fact be useful even without expansion as it would be my choice if long range head shots were my personal choice.

My ethics are in line with yours. I approve of well placed shots that result in immediate incapacitation. I feel no remorse for my quarry in its death. Its death was a fact of its life and it just so happened that I held the upper hand when we met. The tables could be turned as in the case of your bruin friends. I also hunt for the meat. It is the reson I apply for more female than male tags. They are easier to get and I am not concerned with "size". I care for what is in the freezer, not the wall.

I'd take a bullet with superior flight characteristics and accuracy and so so terminal performance over an inaccurate one with excellent terminal performance each and every time. I'm sure many of the posters/readers here would do the same. However I get BOTH with the Berger VLD. The Berger fragmentation is unlike controlled expansion. I have lots of photos that prove this. I liken the VLD to a pinpoint accurate mini grenade. It penetrates 2-4 inches and then goes off. Yet the "expolsion "as it were takes place rather slowly. The destruction lasts for quite a ways.

I have yet to recover a VLD. I shot a cow elk this year and had over 2' of wound channel. Maybe it was 3'. I can't remember. I shot her almsot head on at ~300yds. I have never seen the almost never ending wound channel this 180 gr 7mm provided.
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Savage/ Broughton 23" .308
  #61  
Old 06-18-2009, 08:03 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

esorensen,

Forum communications can sometimes be difficult to interpret and patience is a great virtue. Thanks for your patience, the clarification, and for sharing your experiences with the Berger VLDs. Many of our first-hand experiences are limited due to restrictive bag limits, costs, and other life responsibilities in general, so others sharing their long-range hunting experiences is of great benefit - whether it be bullet performance, optics performance, ballistic software, tricks of the trade, ect...

Good shooting and hunting to you,
  #62  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:05 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

P, not a problem! Just happy to add my .02 whenever I am able. I am VERY fortunate to be able to hunt and shoot A LOT in spite of my responsibilities.

I am puzzeled as to why Barnes would publish what they did. I must guess that they appeal to the average hunter and we do not count ourselves among them. I guess the average guy wouldn't recheck their figures either. I've nothing against Barnes. They are just not my first choice.
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AR-10T in .308 & .243 both 24"
700 LA 7 WSM 30" 5R
AR-15 Rock River lower, WOA 26" varmint upper
Savage/ Broughton 23" .308
  #63  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:39 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

I finally had a chance to read the articles in question and this discussion, which were all good reading. I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their oppinions and share one of my own on the barnes article.

When anyone on this sight decides to do some bullet testing we will work up a load that makes each bullet shoot to the best of our ability. Barnes admits in its article that they worked up a load for the barnes bullet to shoot as well as it did. This makes me wonder if they just used the same powder charge for the other bullets or did they play with the loads until they had one that would not shoot as well as theirs. thoughts like this are a big part of why I enjoy this sight. This is an excellent place for someone to take the time to research anything hunting related and get multiple opinions and facts. I only hope to find more time to do testing of my own and be able to give some input that others haven't already done. Because of the extensive testing and sharing done on this sight and my own preferences, I have three bullet manufactures I am going to work with when my new barrel comes in: Hornady, Berger, and Nosler accubond. Once again thanks to all for sharing, and if anyone has another bullet I should consider in the 180 to 210 grain class of 30 cal. don't be afraid to let me know.
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