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Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

 
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  #43  
Old 06-17-2009, 05:32 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Bryan,

I defer to the judgement of those who specialize in mass marketing, when it is the public at large being addressed. In this particular instance, I think the forum itself acts as something of a filter. If it was not so, Barnes would have skated on this one, and that has not happened.

The ethical issues, while not quantifiable, matter a great deal to me. The Berger video statement put forth their VLD projectile as the "only ...ethical" choice in ELR hunting, and in so doing rendered anything Barnes said in their promotional ad irrelevant as to my objection. It is not simply a semantic slip, although it could easily be excused as sales language. This was a categorical assertion which common standards of morality would judge to be unsupportable in a broader context. Even comments within this thread challenge the notion, and this is from otherwise neutral (and even enthusiastically sympathetic) perspectives.

It is far from inassailable that the Berger VLD is the only means of humanely dispatching an animal at long distance (however "long" is defined), and I am virtually certain that it is not the best from the standpoint of external ballistic performance. You will have first hand knowledge of this when you model, and test the ZA338/6.0-Cu... and this is the "little" guy in the family...

The primary separator is cost, and the Berger VLD is indisputable, by me, for it's value as measured by a cost/performance ratio (not an ethics-performance calculus). This is "Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful" in my opinion.

Best,
Noel

Last edited by noel carlson; 06-17-2009 at 07:49 PM.
  #44  
Old 06-17-2009, 09:56 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Noel,

I like to shoot bone mostly high shoulder. I require that at a given distance my bullets will penetrate heavy bone. If I miss my windage and drift into the heart lung area I would really like some expansion and fragmentation along with an exit wound. Heart lung hits while very terminal usually allow the animal some run time and an exit wound aids in tracking considerably. If I was a heart / lung shooter and miss my windage my bullet must be able to penetrate the bone structure to enter the chest cavity and or disrupt the CNS. I have seen bullets with violent expansion and lighter weights (for example a 120 gr 6.5mm bullet) hit a deer high in the shoulder at close range and fail to break the spine or penetrate the chest cavity. My answer to this is to use a bullet with a high BC for long range hits, heavy weight and caliber (30 or 338 and 200+ grains) and reasonable impact velocities. Even at close range the 210 Berger is still 210 grains, I have never seen it fail to penetrate anything at close distance and still opens up at long range and lower velocity. I only expect the 300 gr 338 bullet to be even more impressive. While the magic bullet may exist I just have not seen lighter bullets that will penetrate bone at long distance and also expand in soft tissue only hits, this includes the Barnes bullets. I have seen Barnes bullets have petal failure and come apart and I have seen them not expand at all. The only thing I have had consistant results with at distance are the larger, heavy, high BC expandable match bullets.
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  #45  
Old 06-17-2009, 11:07 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Shawn,

Thanks for the explaination. That is the type of detail which is very helpful to me.

The .338 "magic" bullet is 265 grains of "Ultem" tipped, turned tellurium copper, with a layered tin/bismuth/silver, tin/indium, bonded core. It will penetrate, and the three petals will not easily detach. The first 1/4" of the nose will fragment as part of a progressively controlled unfolding sequence, but by far, the majority of wound "fragments" from an impact by this projectile would be the animal's own bone.

I designed this based on assumptions which may, or may not, be valid. That is why the expandable/frangible balance needs to be clear to me. I am not attempting to match a market to an existing bullet, but a bullet to a inadequately served market. The entire endeavor is an off-shoot from a 420 grain, 7.0 caliber .375 projectile designed exclusively to target people with first-shot precision up to 2,000 yards, and equipment/material up to 3,000 yards. External ballistics in a hunting application are not a challenge, but the terminal ballistics requirement is confusing to me.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

- Noel

Last edited by noel carlson; 06-17-2009 at 11:11 PM.
  #46  
Old 06-17-2009, 11:31 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Shawn,

If you want to read of my 210 VLD 300 Win Mag experience with the black bear, it's in this thread:

Berger 210 VLD on Black Bear - Field Report

I posted this account just after the experience so this thread will be the most accurate depiction and description of the VLD's performance just off the end of my muzzle.
  #47  
Old 06-17-2009, 11:35 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Noel,

Sounds like StarTreck stuff. No wonder they would have to cost more than Berger VLDs.

Do you have an estimate on when these might be offered retail? Sounds you must have tested them for some time in order to be able to present the terminal performance features for us.

Thanks,


Paul

Last edited by phorwath; 06-18-2009 at 03:42 AM.
  #48  
Old 06-18-2009, 01:10 AM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Humans have been killing animals(and each other for that matter) since we needed to eat. Death is by definition the termination of life. It is this "clinical" death that is quatifiable. It can be measured and predicted. We can study anatomy /physiology and clearly see what it takes to extract life from an organism. ANY projectile introduced into VITAL areas of said organism causing destruction to ANY vital organ system will ultimately yield the clinical death of said organism. Stone, stick or 155 howitzer, clinical death is unerringly the same.

Death being caused by life, can only be differentiated by delivery. Old age?= Dead. Blunt force trauma?= Dead. Penetrating trauma?=Dead. If the delivery meets the prerequisite of vital system destruction, death is the same, no matter how it hapened to arrive. An archer who hits his quarry a little too far back severing the thoracic aorta or possibly even a femoral artery has accomplished his goal as a hunter in delivering death to his animal. Likewise, the rifle hunter who hits liver, lung or brain has done exactly the same.

We as sentient beings have essentially categorized "types" of death. Slow, instant, horrifying, are a few adjectives that come to mind. These types are a manifestation of our human ethos. It is what makes us human. However, in EVERY instance, regardless of "type", a quantifiable scientific reason for clinical death can be easily determined. A post mortem examination is infallible. Information gleaned from it will dispell or confirm any rumors, myths, truths etc.

Since this site is promoting long range hunting, it has defined a de facto arena for delivering fatal projectiles. The title of the website and the practice of this hunting style did not add and "only" at the end. The practitioners of this hunt style will readily accept and possible expect some short and medium range hunting as well. However, the emphasis is on the long range portion.

First and foremost in this is accuracy. If ANY given projectile cannot be introduced into a vital system, then it is for naught. Berger bullets are known in the industry for producing extremely consistent projectiles. To this end, they are accurate, consistently. The Berger VLD bullet based on flight characteristics alone is in perfect concert in a long range hunting role, even if we dismissed all terminal performance.

To tie all of this together, it is the shot placement that is the key. There is no other factor that will be more influential in delivering death. Poor bullet performance blamed on poor shot placement is faulty logic. On the same line of thought, expecting a projectile to perform outside its design is just as futile. I expect to see Barnes bullets to win a match as much as I expect to see multiple feet of penetration and small diameter permanent wound channels with a Berger.

I have killed animals with both. If I were able to put both animals side by side for comparison, in the end , they were exactly the same. DEAD. The vital damage perpetrated by both bullets was vastly different. Yardages were similar, caliber, bullet weight and speed were quite different as well. The key was the placement. IT was the exact same!

I am a Paramedic. We consider ourselves quite able in the art of "prolonging death". I have attended ATLS goat lab. The type of wound channels demonstrated by Barnes, in a perfect scenario, I could do quite a bit of work with. The damage shown by the Berger bullet is a type of broke that could only be treated by complete organ transplant, not field medicine.

In shooting lots of bullets from lots of reputable manufacturers, I have ended up with more yellow boxes on my bench. I cannot remove myself from the confidence they inspire when I pull the trigger. "They go where you point 'em", to quote Walt.

Sorry for the disjointed rant, spelling etc. it's late. It's just my opinion. I've found my magic bullet. Thanks Walt, Eric
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  #49  
Old 06-18-2009, 08:04 AM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Well said.
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