Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Magazine Articles > Product Reviews - Discussion


The thread is closed

Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #29  
Old 06-16-2009, 09:01 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SW Montana
Posts: 4,384
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

wild weasel

My dad loaded some 210 Bergers in his 300 Weatherby and he has so much freebore that he can't get them to the lands so he loaded them to fit and cycle through the mag and they shot the best groups that gun has shot.
  #30  
Old 06-16-2009, 11:01 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,377
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

I'll respond to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noel carlson View Post
An open query...

This thread has generated an important question for me. As a designer who is somewhat unclear about your needs as long range hunters, I need feedback.

Assume the following projectile performance parameters;

- 338 caliber sub-minute accuracy at 1,000+ yards
- Reliably controlled expansion to 2.5 calibers
- Ninety percent+ weight retention, with minimal fragmentation

Is it necessary, within these constraints, to still generate a >7"x 8" diameter lead cloud within soft tissue to achieve a "humane kill"?

NO, IT'S NOT NECESSARY. IT IS, HOWEVER, UNDENIABLY EFFECTIVE.

The reason I ask, is that it is easy to construct a solid bullet that will explode like a grenade when it passes through bone, and to achieve this with material which is entirely non-toxic. My working assumption, and one that presents the greatest engineering challenge, has been more along the lines of what Barnes has pursued (minus the marginal accuracy, and poor long range performance).

SOUNDS LIKE A SUPERB BULLET

Are you collectively accepting the complete fragmentation properties, of the Berger-type projectile as a desirable, or an unavoidable, consequence of high accuracy (or both)?

I WOULD HAVE TO SAY "ACCEPTABLE" IS CLOSEST TO THE TRUTH. BERGERS COMBINE SUPERB ACCURACY, VERY HIGH BC, AND EFFECTIVE TERMINAL PERFORMANCE, AT A HARD TO BEAT PRICE.

ACCURACY AND BC ARE MEASURABLE, KNOWN QUANTITIES. TERMINAL PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED ALSO. I HAVE PERSONALLY FOUND THEM 100% EFFECTIVE, EVEN IMPRESSIVE. I HAVE NOT HAD A PROBLEM WITH FRAGMENTS BEING WHERE THEY DIDN'T BELONG.

ALL THAT SAID, IF THE ACCUBONDS OFFERED EQUAL ACCURACY, BC, AND PRICE I WOULD LIKELY USE THEM, BECAUSE I PREFER AN EXIT WOUND. MEANWHILE, BERGER IS PRODUCING A PRODUCT I AM VERY HAPPY WITH. THIER PR AND CUSTOMER SERVICE IS TOP NOTCH ALSO.
Best,
Noel
  #31  
Old 06-17-2009, 07:00 AM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 502
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild weasel View Post
... if i could just get about 10 or 12 bullets to try then i would better know if i would use them.
Try: Bullet Samples for Sportsmen Rifles
__________________
Bryan Litz
Ballistician

Author of: Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting
And: Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting

  #32  
Old 06-17-2009, 09:43 AM
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 1,822
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

A bullets terminal performance is a subject that will be argued over forever "around the campfire". Erik, a well written rebutal to what is obviously an attempt by Barnes to regain some of the ground it is loosing to the high BC, long range and match bullet market. I like most everyone else have my own opinions about bullet performance and here is what I teach in my long range hunting classes:

1. First and most important is a bullets ability to hit the "X". All other things being the same a higher BC will allow you to do this better in field first shot hunting conditions.

2. After placing the bullet on the "X", you must have at least minimum amount of penetration, again all other things being the same more BC allows more impact velocity and tends to accomplish this better.

3. After hitting the "X" and penetrating the required amount the more perminate and temporary wound channel the better. The more multiple projectiles the better (both bone and bullet pieces).

4. I prefer full penetration and an exit wound for tracking purposes if required, but would not make this requirement manditory from a bullet.

5. There is no magic bullet yet, if a bullet expands well at lower impact velocities it will come apart violently at close range, if it retains weight well at higher impact velocities it will not reliably expand at the lower impact velocities. Given this, I give the advantage toward the expandable bullets in the heaviest for caliber catagory. I have had very good results in the 210 grain 30 cal Berger bullets and am patiently waiting for the 300 gr .338 bullet.

In summary my thoughts are that bullet terminal performance aside from achieving the required penetration, makes alot less difference when the shot is spot on. It is the less than perfect shot (commonly known as a poor shot) where good terminal performance can save the day. I am not going to base my bullet selection on how a bullet performs if I screw up the shot. I am going to base my selection on the bullet that allows me to place the bullet the best in field conditions and good terminal performance is a bonus. I have a pretty fair amount of video to back this position up with hits from a couple hundred yards to over 1000 yards. I think that a bullet with the BC of a bowling ball but having 100% weight retention blah, blah, blah (like the Barnes and others) are a waste of time for the serious long range hunter. I believe that the serious LRH guys are about hitting the "X" and won't shoot unless they can.

I know everyone has their opinions, but I am not real wild about Barnes coming out with an article that tells me my choices and methods for hunting are unethical as I have seen more animals lost to poorly placed shots than any other factors combined. It is my observation that using components that, allow the highest first round hit % on the given target, have plenty of mass and impact velocity will win the day.
__________________
Shawn Carlock

www.defensiveedge.net
1-208-687-2659
  #33  
Old 06-17-2009, 10:52 AM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 261
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Quote:
Originally Posted by joep17 View Post
Wow.

I read both articles carefully. Learned something from both. However, there was one big difference. To my perception, the Barnes article came across as information with some opinion and artisctic license BUT completely professional and left the reader to decide for themselves. I did not get the sense of personal or corporate attack like I did the second article. The tone definitely dropped my high opinion of the Berger name down a couple of notches. Great product, just a step backwards in company image.

And here I thought shooting, reloading and ballistics were pure science where emotions and passions got checked at the door.
Joep17,

I've reread both articles and admittedly am struggling to understand how you come to your conclusions. How can the use of artistic license be justified in an article which uses support data based on tests (scientific facts)? You can't have it both ways. Barnes' comments are not an interpretation of the observed test results but are almost entirely based on opinions (marketing hype) which are loosely related to the facts they present in their data.

To summarize their article, what they say is using Barnes is good, using Nosler and Berger is bad (even unethical and careless) and we have some cool pictures too. These pictures show how each bullet works on impact and they don't support our conclusion that choosing high BC bullets is bad but they sure look cool. Oh and we'll add some long range velocity data that is purely fictitious. Plus we'll show that we can make our bullets shoot much better than we can make Noslers and Bergers shoot.

If my interpretation of their article is inaccurate I encourage someone to show me how. One of my strongest motivations for writing this article is that for years I have watched various manufacturers and self proclaimed experts spew forth inaccurate information that they expect the general shooting public to take as gospel. I strongly believe that this is among the most destructive acts to come from within the shooting sports. Enough outside forces are working against shooting that we should do everything we can to prevent the weakening of our sport from within.

If you have read both articles and in having no bias for either bullet are left with the impression that I am the one who has acted inappropriately then I apologize as this was not my intension. At Berger we are committed to the rifle shooter's successful experience and the growth and strengthening of the shooting sports.

I believe strongly that this goal can be reached by understanding and committing to the facts produced by science based evaluations. If there is factual information readily available that is not diluted by those taking "artistic license" the shooting experience is improved. Improving shooting experiences is a powerful way to strengthen the shooting sports. Any comments I made that seemed emotionally charged are the result of my passionate pursuit and defense of this position.

Regards,
Eric
__________________
To strengthen your shooting skills go to the range.
To strengthen the shooting sports take a non-shooter with you.

Berger Bullets

Last edited by Eric Stecker; 06-17-2009 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Clarification
  #34  
Old 06-17-2009, 11:55 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 214
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Shawn,

You are hitting upon a point which I was leaving unspoken, thanks. The emphasis on making the "perfect shot" would obviate much of the discussion on explosive terminal property benefits, which come to the fore only in consequence to the "poor shot" (and sometimes not even then based on Paul's experience).

I am trying to make a synthesis of qualities which would go into your "ideal" projectile, and am still unclear. Assume a BC in excess of 1.0, and high accuracy. As I understand your post, you desire both maximum fragmentation (bone, and bullet), and an exit wound. This sounds like a move away from the "magic bullet" (which does exist), torwards a very long bullet which has adequate material to provide alot of schrapnel, and still preserve a solid plug for an exit. Am I understanding you correctly?

Eric,

Without reference to external ballistic deficiencies of the Barnes product, I believe, as Bryan has pointed out, that there is some "artistic license" involved in the interpretation of terminal ballistic assessment. At least part of the "carelessness or ethics" of ELR hunting embrace this feature of a bullet's performance. There is a very nice promotional video clip on the Berger home page which presents the Berger VLD as "the only ethical choice" for long range hunting. I watch that for what it is... a sales promotion. Perhaps cutting Barnes that slack in relation to their own interpretation is what Joep 17 is alluding to. I am not suggesting your article was inaccurate in any other aspect.

Best,
Noel
  #35  
Old 06-17-2009, 12:29 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 3,344
Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

My description of the ideal bullet in my first post allowed for the possibility of "magic" - that a bullet can be made to perform as described - with boring consistency - over and over again.

My current selection and use of two separate bullets - one for shorter range and one for long ranges - is based on the reality of the bullet offerings available to me at this time. I could just as well go with the Barnes TSX as the Nosler Accubonds for closer range shots. They get the job done very well from the muzzle out to normal typical hunting ranges with any sort of lethal hit. However the Barnes TSX do suffer from a greater BC efficiency handicap at long range compared to the Nosler Accubond and Berger VLDs.

Let me see some magic.
The thread is closed

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker ADMIN Technical Articles - Discussion 42 12-21-2013 07:52 AM
Video interview of Walt Berger and Eric Stecker of Berger Bullets Len Backus Videos Of Tech Stuff And Reviews 6 02-18-2012 11:22 AM
Berger's Eric Stecker shoots 0.054 inch 100 yard group at 2011 Kelbly’s Super Shoot Len Backus General Discussion 17 06-22-2011 11:49 PM
SPONSOR PROFILE - Berger Bullets - Eric Stecker Andy Backus Sponsor Profile 0 03-02-2011 11:58 AM
Berger 140 hunting vlds kustomkoatings Long Range Hunting & Shooting 0 10-20-2010 07:41 PM

Current Poll
Do you plan to buy a new custom rifle in the next 12 months?
YES - Of course - 72.94%
1,650 Vote
NO - wife/girlfriend won't let me. - 27.06%
612 Votes
Total Votes: 2,262
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC