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Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

 
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  #155  
Old 04-10-2011, 09:19 AM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

I enjoy using TSX in some of my larger cartridges, they are a good bullet. They do have an annoying possibility of not opening up. If the meplat gets bent shut they will not open up and the bullet will change its terminal trajectory and exit in some unintended location. All bullets have their quirks!
  #156  
Old 04-10-2011, 11:19 AM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Ken's comment is right on ...I too love Barnes Xs for their intended purpose...deep penetration thru thick skinned, big boned animals that produce an exit wound for trailing just in case you get a deflection or mi..mi..miss your intended aim point. Leaving all the energy in an animal is great if, IF it puts them down where you can easily find them...trouble is _ _ it happens and entrance wounds do NOT tend to provide much of a blood trail while exit wounds do. Terminal ballistics is wonderful with Barnes Xs on escaping (or charging) adrenalin pumping muscle tissue animals at high velocity impact. Terminal ballistics is wonderful on Berger Hunting VLDs on relaxed muscle tissue animals at reduced velocity impact.
At LRH distances this Berger Hunting VLD is the latest and greatest technology but don't think it will let you use the Texas heart shot on the proverbial south end of a north bound elk in dark timber when you jump him out of his bed. Just like the 1.5v5X scope being better for timber(or dangerous game) hunting and the 5.5v22X making LRH easier...we can't talk all these properties into one box.
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  #157  
Old 04-27-2011, 09:09 AM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

I have always suspected that VLD are indeed a nasty pill for game animals. Look at Hornady TAP ammo and how it is designed. It hits and within two inches "explodes" This creates a massive drop in blood pressure (and wound) that puts the threat down instantly. Now TAP is designed for LE/defense use but the concept is very sound. Create a really big hole that is going to bleed a lot.


Now like Berger says extend that to a VLD bullet. What you get is a pill that will have very low wind drift a flat trajectory (reducing user error in wind estimation) and arive at a much higher velocity with more energy. On impact it will dump all it's energy into the animal causing it to go into shock and expire very quickly.

All this sounds very ethical and responsible to me. Increased accuracy and chance of a fast clean kill, not to mention dropping an animal in it's tracts so you have a better chance at harvesting the thing. Imagine a barnes bullet sure you kill it but after it runs a half mile. now the deer has suffered and needlessly because you'll never find it.

All this is a fine intellectual exercise. But I like real world results and they dont lie how many video out there of .338 Edge shooting 300GR mathckings(that video of that bear dropping dead at 669 yards comes to mind), or 300 win mag shooting 210 berger VLD or Hornady 208GR Amax where the animal goes down like someone hit a light switch. Seems obvious to me from reading on this board that VLD are mighty good at killing animal first shot and putting them down quick.

Only downside is If you miss the vitals and get them say in the rear it might ruin a lot of the good meat. Of course the same is true of any round.

To me a quick kill were the animal drops dead in it's track is paramount. You achieve this through proficiency with your weapon and an accurate load.

As always this is just my .02 and I'm just some yahoo on the internet, so I would recommend everyone who is worried about the ethics of VLD's go spend some time varmint hunting with them I think you'll change your mind.
  #158  
Old 04-27-2011, 11:53 AM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkoholic307 View Post
The 6.5 Berger VLD flies and groups very well, I will give it that. But, how it performs on big game is inconsistent at best. In my experiences, the 140 VLD works best if you have a perfect double lung broadside shot. How often do you get a 'perfect' shot? Even then, I would consider it a gamble if using Bergers; especially if hunting whitetail.

Berger states that their hunting bullets penetrate 2 to 3 inches of tissue and bone before expanding deep in the vital area. They also brag that game "won't run away from a Berger Hunting VLD." I have found these statements to be false, more often than not. I have seen both the 130 and 140 work well on black bear, mulies and whitetail. Although, none of the animals were DRT. Some actually ran very far before going down; which makes me nervous using it in thick, brushy areas. I have also witnessed the 6.5 140 literally blow up on the outside of multiple deer and antelope. Hence, why my main argument is with Berger's consistency.

Besides consistency, I have not seen many exit holes. And, if it does exit, it generally destroys the hide. I want my trophies killed cleanly and DRT. Therefore, I want my bullets to retain weight, penetrate deep and leave an exit hole. I believe exit holes are important for better blood trails. Since using the Tipped TSX, I have not had to follow any.

If I just wanted to ring that 800 yard gong all day, there would have been no reason to switch. But, I want to do that and more. I want my bullets to actually kill every time. So now... I Shoot Better, I Shoot Barnes.
Elkoholic,

I know your post is a few months old but it has been a while since I've visited this particular thread. I quoted your post so that others will know what I am referring to with my response. You make a good point that is not lost on our efforts to make the best hunting bullets we can.

One of our primary concerns from the beginning was terminal performance consistency. Even though we conducted hundreds of tests (mostly in media but also in game) that proved consistent results we were always aware that inconsistent performance was our greatest concern. If for no other reason than the numerous different shooting systems that would use our bullets that we were unable to test due to their sheer numbers.

After we launched our bullets as "Hunting" bullets we had our ears wide open for reports of terminal performance failures. It was nearly a year before we received our first report. Since then we have received a couple dozen reports of terminal performance "failures" ranging from failure to expand to expansion on impact. Each of these reports is taken seriously and we are working to understand the root cause so that we can eliminate these results completely.

Having said that, over that same period of time we have sold over 50,000,000 hunting bullets. I will assume that all of these have not been used on game but if 10% have then that is 5,000,000 animals taken with Berger Hunting VLD. Assuming the few dozen reports we get are multiplied 10 times to account for those who don't tell us what happened, we are talking about a "failure" rate of 0.005%.

Of course we are working to achieve perfection but I can relay that I have heard more than a few dozen stories about "failures" by other brands (with the larger portion of these reports being about Barnes). I will accept that these companies sell more hunting bullets than we do so it is reasonable to estimate that they will have more reported failures due to the ratio of their bullets sold to ours.

My point is that no bullet or brand performs 100% perfectly all the time. In many of these situations the bullet (regardless of brand) may have had no chance of working properly due to other variable that affect external ballistic and terminal performance. The best a hunter can do is to use the shooting system (and bullet) that he trusts based on his personal results or recommendations from others he trusts to be capable.

Given your observations, I would expect you to continue to shoot Barnes as you should since they've worked for you. I will suggest that your experience with Berger is an exception to what is commonly experienced by hunters all over the world. I'd go further to say that if you rotated equally between Barnes and Berger between animals you shoot, over the course of your hunting experiences you will observe fewer poor performance issues with Berger than with Barnes if you use both with an equal effort to achieve successful results.

Regards,
Eric
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Last edited by Eric Stecker; 04-27-2011 at 12:14 PM.
  #159  
Old 04-27-2011, 02:14 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Best elk medicine out of my 338/378,s is barnes tsx or sierra match king..Berger 300 gr. 338 didnt work before and the new 300 gr. wont either.
Just trying to set them up correctly is a pain. when i called berger a year ago the answer was no jump. last week it was they will work better if they do jump.barnes and sierra work even with a bad shot. what i read on shawns post didnt sound that positive to me.
  #160  
Old 04-27-2011, 03:08 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Extreme,

When you say that the Berger's didn't work but the Barnes' and Sierra's do, can you be more specific. What were the conditions under which you found that the Barnes' and Sierra's were successful and the Berger's were unsuccessful?

The Berger 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid is shooting extremely well (MOA) for many shooters in every 338 cal case of which I am aware (except for those who had performance issues at high velocity with the Gen 1 bullets). The fact that it didn't shoot in your rifle does not automatically mean that the bullet is bad. Precision is affected by many variables that make up the shooting system.

The design of this particular bullet (Hybrid) is such that it should work well at any seating depth. In Shawn's rifle he found it worked well close to the lands. In others it works well with a jump. It doesn't take many rounds to test your rifle at different COAL. The advice that you were given is consistent with the standard tuning processes. You try it at one point and if it doesn't work you try it at another.

Regards,
Eric
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  #161  
Old 04-27-2011, 05:29 PM
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Re: Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

Eric

not trying to avoid the answer to your question ...i will get back to you at a later date ..where iam at i dont have my load data but i will answer later.
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