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Are wolves really the problem

 
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  #92  
Old 09-02-2013, 03:06 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
Posts: 5,954
Re: Are wolves really the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by longrangehuntr View Post
MontanaRifleman and mtnwrunner; you are why people have a distaste for sportsmen. I have been posting all along i am all for hunting wolves, not once did i say i was against hunting wolves. I have been hunting for many years and that fact that i was searching for proof not someones word as to why the wolves are the problem is why i asked this question. I also posted that if I were in the position/location as many of you are i would be s,s,s when it came to every wolf and coyote. It seems to me that you can type away on a keyboard but cant or wont go shoot a wolf or 10. Longrangefreek made the most sense of most of these posts and i would like to see any pics you can provide to this thread. It has been said that elk cannot be herded any direction they do not want to go yet if you shoot a pile of elk they go away but you have to leave the gut piles and or the entire elk to rot. Is that not a means of herding elk?
Getting angry at me because i don't believe what you say without a thought or wanting proof is the same as the mass of sheeple that believe the libs about how gun control will eliminate crime.

you keep shooting the elk in montana, and wolves and bears and mnt lions and coyotes and i will continue to hunt in washington and idaho.

post the pics whenever you can
Let's get a couple of things straight... first, I am not angry at you... a little frustrated at times with your rhetoric, but not angry. Next, I never said or implied that you were against hunting wolves. What I have said is that your rhetoric muddies the water and is distracting to the real issue which was/is the introduction of a destructive species and the efforts of those who favor it. That said, I'm not really sure what you are for or against. There seems to be a lot of contradiction in your posts.

I personally know several of the members posting in this thread, but I don't you from Adam. You could a pretender of some sort for all I know. We all live here at ground zero and have witnessed the madness first hand. A way of life is being destroyed for many. Prosperous and healthy elk herds have almost wiped out and it is a silent catastrophe. You start this thread and state that the real problem is poachers and Natives and not wolves. Can you imagine the dismay of us here who are living a wolf nightmare, when someone like you who claims to be a sportsman and hunter, says that wolves are not the problem???

I find it a little mind boggling that you engage in debates with bigngreen and rooster about hings you know nothing about and they know everything about because they live it. I am not a rancher, but I have lived in Montana long enough to understand something about ranchers and ranching and I understand that they have an affection for the wildlife of Montana and at the same time struggle with it. Many of them are avid sportsmen and hunters, but at the same time, their livelihood is sometimes in direct competition with what they love. You seem unable to grasp that.

"Scarring" and "herding" are completely different things. You can scare a wild animal "away" from a particular location but you can not herd them "to" a specific location. Wild animals are not livestock, especially not elk. When winter comes, food becomes scarce for wildlife. Elk migrate to hay fields where fodder is sweet and plentiful. The drive to eat overcomes the fear of danger and although you haze and shoot them, they always come back until spring thaw when they migrate back into summer range.

My specific location the Gallatin Valley which is in between rooster and bigngreen is not a great place to hunt wolves. It is a high population area (for Montana) with a lot of rural residential and farm land and access is extremely difficult. The closest best place to find wolves is on a ranch that Ted Turner owns so that is out of the question. Bottom line is that if I want to hunt wolves I need to go East to the Paradise Valley or West to the Madison Valley, where it is much easier to come into contact with wolves. This I plan to do this winter after the regular hunting season and if an opportunity arises during the regular hunting season, well I sure will take it.

As far as researching the facts, it's not that hard to do if you really want to. And i will tell you that rooster, bigngreen and others are giving you the facts. They are giving you a good education and insight to the real deal. Take advantage of it.
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  #93  
Old 09-02-2013, 03:51 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Paradise Valley montana
Posts: 370
Re: Are wolves really the problem

After this post I am not contributing to this thread. For the record any elk killed out of season that I was involved with we're the result of a Montana Fish and Game kill permit. All animals were sold at public auction by the MFWP or processed and donated to the food bank.
My father spent 33 years as a Montana Game warden and retired in 2003, so although I am not a biologist, I have seen a lot of action!

In 2005 and 2006 my father spoke against the mfwp wolf management in Helena, it is all on record. That fall while hunting with my father I was arrested by the warden that replaced my father for killing a bull elk 1 minute early in Jardine MT. I was told by the retiring judge that the case would be thrown out! I lost in court with a brand new judge in her first case! The new judge was personal friends with the new warden and hated my father. I was turned in by a rival outfitter. The warden was not present on the day of the incident. In court I was told by the judge that a guy must use a cell phone to tell the exact time of day. Yet the warden wrote the wrong shooting time for the day of the incident on the ticket. Long story short they got my father back for his testimony! So I get a bit pissy when I am called a poacher and I have no use for the mfwp!
Oh and I have a few dead wolf pictures, come to my house and I will show you them
Happy hunting
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  #94  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:41 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 106
Re: Are wolves really the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by dook View Post
Mass media and Hollywood are why people have a distaste for sportsmen and mass media/Hollywood is why some fools want gun control.

"Proof" is not something that comes from some corrupt "person with authority". The experiences of everyday hunters are worth more to me than what bought-and-paid-for "ex-spurts" say.


If this were true then why is it that once i posted how I saw a difference in washington with native americans shooting whatever i was told that was false. my own experience was false and everyone was telling me that native americans are not killing anything? The media cannot be all false.
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  #95  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:55 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 106
Re: Are wolves really the problem

[QUOTE=mtnwrunner;845873]Well, you don't know me from adam and I don't know you other than what you post. You can look up my profile and it will tell you who I am but the funny thing is yours doesn't say a thing. Hmmmmmm............. The one thing that I can assure you of is that I am about as much "sportsman" as one can be and that statement from you is the only real one so far that has pissed me off. You say that I, and others are "angry" with you---nope, I, we, just hate ignorance when it comes to the wolf issue. I, unlike you, LIVE in one of the most controversial wolf areas when it comes to the wolf issue so yes, I can speak about that issue with some experience. You have been given example after example after example of why it is the wolves which is the answer to your original post. There is no one on this site that is gonna change your mind---you have it made up. QUOTE]




Whatever someone puts on their profile does not mean it is true or say anything about anyone. I have been given examples of how wolves have killed cattle, elk , sheep, goats, pets however few have actually shown proof except for the first part of the thread. you can tell me wolves kill everything but that is the same as a lib telling me guns kill people. loss of habitat, harsh winters, low reproduction rates play a part since one of the ranchers said it himself that if it were not for the water and hay he supplied to his cattle the elk would not be growing like they are. that right there tells me the elk do not have the habitat or food to sustain them.
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  #96  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:02 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 106
Re: Are wolves really the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Let's get a couple of things straight... first, I am not angry at you... a little frustrated at times with your rhetoric, but not angry. Next, I never said or implied that you were against hunting wolves. What I have said is that your rhetoric muddies the water and is distracting to the real issue which was/is the introduction of a destructive species and the efforts of those who favor it. That said, I'm not really sure what you are for or against. There seems to be a lot of contradiction in your posts.

I personally know several of the members posting in this thread, but I don't you from Adam. You could a pretender of some sort for all I know. We all live here at ground zero and have witnessed the madness first hand. A way of life is being destroyed for many. Prosperous and healthy elk herds have almost wiped out and it is a silent catastrophe. You start this thread and state that the real problem is poachers and Natives and not wolves. Can you imagine the dismay of us here who are living a wolf nightmare, when someone like you who claims to be a sportsman and hunter, says that wolves are not the problem???

I find it a little mind boggling that you engage in debates with bigngreen and rooster about hings you know nothing about and they know everything about because they live it. I am not a rancher, but I have lived in Montana long enough to understand something about ranchers and ranching and I understand that they have an affection for the wildlife of Montana and at the same time struggle with it. Many of them are avid sportsmen and hunters, but at the same time, their livelihood is sometimes in direct competition with what they love. You seem unable to grasp that.

"Scarring" and "herding" are completely different things. You can scare a wild animal "away" from a particular location but you can not herd them "to" a specific location. Wild animals are not livestock, especially not elk. When winter comes, food becomes scarce for wildlife. Elk migrate to hay fields where fodder is sweet and plentiful. The drive to eat overcomes the fear of danger and although you haze and shoot them, they always come back until spring thaw when they migrate back into summer range.

My specific location the Gallatin Valley which is in between rooster and bigngreen is not a great place to hunt wolves. It is a high population area (for Montana) with a lot of rural residential and farm land and access is extremely difficult. The closest best place to find wolves is on a ranch that Ted Turner owns so that is out of the question. Bottom line is that if I want to hunt wolves I need to go East to the Paradise Valley or West to the Madison Valley, where it is much easier to come into contact with wolves. This I plan to do this winter after the regular hunting season and if an opportunity arises during the regular hunting season, well I sure will take it.

As far as researching the facts, it's not that hard to do if you really want to. And i will tell you that rooster, bigngreen and others are giving you the facts. They are giving you a good education and insight to the real deal. Take advantage of it.

Thank you much and I am listening even if it does not seem like I am.
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  #97  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:14 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 106
Re: Are wolves really the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster740 View Post
After this post I am not contributing to this thread. For the record any elk killed out of season that I was involved with we're the result of a Montana Fish and Game kill permit. All animals were sold at public auction by the MFWP or processed and donated to the food bank.
My father spent 33 years as a Montana Game warden and retired in 2003, so although I am not a biologist, I have seen a lot of action!

In 2005 and 2006 my father spoke against the mfwp wolf management in Helena, it is all on record. That fall while hunting with my father I was arrested by the warden that replaced my father for killing a bull elk 1 minute early in Jardine MT. I was told by the retiring judge that the case would be thrown out! I lost in court with a brand new judge in her first case! The new judge was personal friends with the new warden and hated my father. I was turned in by a rival outfitter. The warden was not present on the day of the incident. In court I was told by the judge that a guy must use a cell phone to tell the exact time of day. Yet the warden wrote the wrong shooting time for the day of the incident on the ticket. Long story short they got my father back for his testimony! So I get a bit pissy when I am called a poacher and I have no use for the mfwp!
Oh and I have a few dead wolf pictures, come to my house and I will show you them
Happy hunting
I would very much like to move to montana, I would like to purchase the former Hope Ranch property in White fish montana. if there are no more elk, MFWP will be without a large portion of income so if they want to put themselves out of a job so be it. states make too much money of of hunting to just throw that revenue away. Sounds like you need to vote for new management or even run for game warden. sounds like the rival outfitter wants all the elk for his business. how did the rival outfitter know what time you shot the elk? no one had to prove what time you shot the elk? I tried to turn guys in for poaching and game and fish told me if they don't see them doing it they cant do anything.
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  #98  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:24 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 124
Re: Are wolves really the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by longrangehuntr View Post
I saw first hand in new mexico, the gemsbok was transplanted on the white sands missile range and grew to 9000 strong without any predators except hunters to control them. They get up to about 800 pounds and horns that are 40 inches long. .
Did you know when they introduced them they also introduced African Lions? At White Sands Missile Range there are pictures of lions on the missile range. The lions didn't make it so they had no predators but hunters. Imagine if we were having this discussion over lions rather than wolves.

Now I am not starting a fight among ranchers and hunters but these are my personal experiences.

On your other post you stated the ranchers and Native Americans drive elk onto their land. I can't say from personal experience about Native Americans but I have seen ranchers moving elk into their land from forest service boundaries before hunting season. Yes you can move them by human scent and activity in the area before hunting season. A lot of people have called this false but it does happen. The reason is in your other post.....BIG BUCKS for private land tags.

I have been to NM G&F meetings when ranchers were bitching about the elk on their land destroying crops and causing an economic hardship on the ranches and wanting more tags. When I asked them, in the open meeting, if I could hunt their ranch since I had a public land tag I was told NO.

The same with the Oryx....ranchers wanted to charge to hunt their land or no access. Now that is their land to charge access to but don't complain about the wild life damaging the land and crops if you do not want animals taken off it without charging $.

Now as I stated earlier I am not starting a fight between hunters and ranchers. I RESPECT them both, I have been on both sides of the fence. I know people on both the good and bad side of hunting and ranching. Some bad apples on both sides give the whole barrel a bad taste.

Now to get back on topic..Yes the wolves are a major problem. They should have been hunted a lot sooner than they started the hunting season. The reintroduction is completely FUBAR and I don't think we as hunters can catch up and reduce the population to what it should be.
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