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 Elk Hunting Techniques For Elk Hunting

# What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

#22
06-11-2010, 04:31 PM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Grantsville Utah Posts: 4,213
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theodore Three things: 1st- I'm not offended 2nd- I love the 7mm 168 vld for elk, they are not consistent for pass through but the hydraulic shock is really high with wound channels as large as 18". 3rd-1000fps? I would love to know a bullet that works on game at 3000fps and still expands consistently at 1000fps. A-max has the lowest impact velocity that I know of which is around 1400fps(I could be wrong and it could be lower than I thought). Hitting an animal with a bullet that doesn't expand releases nearly zero amount of energy into the game and is like hitting them with a broadless arrow. Generally 2000fps is the rule of thumb for minimum impact velocity. The minimum amount of ft. lbs needed on elk really does depends on the bullet. They are all different.
I agree with Theo on this one. While ft. lbs. are a consideration, the bullet IMHO is a greater factor. You can have two bullets that theoretically should deliver the same amount of energy based on weight and velocity and perform "completely" different on an animal. What happens inside the animal is what kills and ft lbs has less to do with it than other factors. That being said, a bullet delivering a very low amount of energy will normally not allow a bullet to perform up to its potential. Also, the elapsed time that a bullet takes to expend its energy inside an animal greatly affects the type and amount of damage caused even if the total energy expended is equal. This why a Berger and an accubond of the same wt. and velocity form different wound channels and could perform better or worse depending on the circumstances even though they both deliver equal energy. I don't mean to sound like the amount of energy delivered is of no value, but I do think it is often over rated. OK, I now have my flak jacket on...Rich
#23
10-13-2014, 01:20 PM
 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

The Myth of Minimum Impact Energy | Winchester World of Whitetail

Here is a good article explaining those high numbers to be a myth
#24
10-21-2014, 11:19 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,172
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

I've also heard that 3 times the animals estimated weight is a good rule of thumb. But don't tell the tens of thousands of moose that have been dropped with a 6.5 Swede.
#25
10-22-2014, 09:53 PM
 Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 183
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

It is my opinion that KE and or foot pounds of energy is really an antiquated and not an accurate method of determining killing power. The Taylor KO factor is 60-70 years old and has little relevance with modern day bullets. Bullets kill elk not energy. Energy play a role because energy is what delivers the bullet. That's all it does! Nothing more! Now that being said bullet design has alot to do with killing power as does the velocity of the bullet.

Two bullets of the same caliber traveling at the same speed. One passes through and the other remains in the animal. Both have the same foot pound of energy but the bullet that remains in the animal delivers more of that energy into the body than the pass through does. Does that mean the non-pass through kills better? Absolutely not. Still too many variables. Like tissue damage, wound Chanel, bullet expansion etc.

To truly predict maximum effective range of any load you have to consider bullet design and performance, velocity and energy.

All that being said I know for a fact that with good bullets 1000 Ft/lbs of energy is way more than you need. I know this because of personal experience and because the math doesn't work using energy as the only factor.
#26
10-22-2014, 10:42 PM
 Official LRH Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 1,654
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wyodog It is my opinion that KE and or foot pounds of energy is really an antiquated and not an accurate method of determining killing power. The Taylor KO factor is 60-70 years old and has little relevance with modern day bullets. Bullets kill elk not energy. Energy play a role because energy is what delivers the bullet. That's all it does! Nothing more! Now that being said bullet design has alot to do with killing power as does the velocity of the bullet. Two bullets of the same caliber traveling at the same speed. One passes through and the other remains in the animal. Both have the same foot pound of energy but the bullet that remains in the animal delivers more of that energy into the body than the pass through does. Does that mean the non-pass through kills better? Absolutely not. Still too many variables. Like tissue damage, wound Chanel, bullet expansion etc. To truly predict maximum effective range of any load you have to consider bullet design and performance, velocity and energy. All that being said I know for a fact that with good bullets 1000 Ft/lbs of energy is way more than you need. I know this because of personal experience and because the math doesn't work using energy as the only factor.
+++1

Steve
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#27
09-24-2015, 10:12 AM
 Silver Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East Missouri Posts: 111
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

I've been thinking about one of the various Subsonic 50 caliber rifle cartridges because although they are very very slow ~1100 FPS they retain their energy for a long way ~1000 FPE all the way out to ~2300 yards with a 750 grain A-Max probably longer with other bullets. I realize that at that slow penetration and bullet expansion will be greatly reduced so most bullets will behave more like full metal jacketed or solid bullets but it will still be a .510 hole and that's probably bigger than a fully expanded 6.5 swede ? Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts, opinions, and answers.
#28
09-25-2015, 08:29 AM
 Official LRH Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 1,654
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

Quote:
 Originally Posted by 375rifleman I've been thinking about one of the various Subsonic 50 caliber rifle cartridges because although they are very very slow ~1100 FPS they retain their energy for a long way ~1000 FPE all the way out to ~2300 yards with a 750 grain A-Max probably longer with other bullets. I realize that at that slow penetration and bullet expansion will be greatly reduced so most bullets will behave more like full metal jacketed or solid bullets but it will still be a .510 hole and that's probably bigger than a fully expanded 6.5 swede ? Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts, opinions, and answers.
A non-expanding pointed bullet vs a non-expanding flat front bullet will make a huge difference in permanent wound channel. The elasticity of the flesh will stretch and close back up and cause less damage than one might think.

Steve
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