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# What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

#8
06-26-2009, 07:30 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: OK Posts: 2,145
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

J E , that didn't come out exactly right. There were more experienced Ultra Long Range hunters frequenting the discussions. They were more into minimums at extreme range, and what worked in the real world. I never stated my opinion on the subject.

If a guy wants info, I was just trying to direct him to some.
#9
06-26-2009, 10:39 AM
 Silver Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Truckee Posts: 293
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

What altitude are we looking at for the elk hunt and the speed of this 185vld load? This will determine your max range.

For 30cal 185vld, I would base my max range by using 1800fps as minimum impact velocity for elk since its a larger diameter bullet that creates a larger hydraulic shock.

A 243 winchester can send the 105 vld @ 3050fps, it produces 1470ft-lb at 400 yards. I'm skeptical about using it on an elk due to smaller diameter bullet that produces less hydraulic shock.

This is complicated math which hasn't been figured out yet(or I thought). So that is why I go with proven calibers like the 30s for elk and the minimum impact velocity to make sure that dang bullet expands!
#10
06-26-2009, 10:59 PM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 5,421
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Coyboy J E , that didn't come out exactly right. There were more experienced Ultra Long Range hunters frequenting the discussions. They were more into minimums at extreme range, and what worked in the real world. I never stated my opinion on the subject. If a guy wants info, I was just trying to direct him to some.
Sorry CoyBoy Mine didn't come out the way I intended it to either .So were even.

You are right about less energy being used many years ago but things have changed
a lot in the past 10 years and this is the reason the energy has changed.

Long range hunters have pushed the distance to unheard ranges from a decade ago.
(I can remember when 300 yards was the exception for an Elk shot ,not the norm. and
the 7mm mag or the 300 win mag were the preferred calibers.

With better bullets, accuracy, barrels, optics, stocks,bigger calibers and powders the range
has moved out from the days of the 7s and 300s.

But if you look back at the ballistics of the 7mm mag at 300 yds with the ammo of the time
you are down to less than 1800 ft/lbs and with bullet performance at the time that was
marginal. (I can remember when 2000ft/lbs was recommended for Elk and 1500ft/lbs for
deer) but with better bullets and with the trend to go with 338s for Elk the energy numbers
have came down.

I hunted Elk with a great shooting 270 Win and had great success , But I limited my shots to
250 to 300 yards because I could see a marked decrease in DRT kills as the distance increased.

I have stated many times that I am conservative in my hunting philosophies But over a 50 year
span of hunting and close to 500 big game animals taken with gun and bow I have only lost 2
and that's 2 to many.

The only exception to that is if I get a shot at a pig then it's no holds bard.

Sorry if I sounded a little salty

J E CUSTOM
__________________
"PRESS ON"
#11
06-27-2009, 11:56 AM
 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 10
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

Thanks everyone for the advice and direction. I have used your advice to do searches on this site and on the internet, and I have done a lot of reading and have a lot more to still read. At this point, it seems that there is a lack of scientific study on terminal ballistics on animals. I have read many opposing comments and the authors make persuasive points to support their varying hypothesis. Accurate bullet placement appears to be the only undisputed factor amoung all of the comments that I have read. I am confident that I have selected a bullet that performs well to put the elk down. At least I do not need to change these two factors.

A little background on how I arrived at this question. Last fall while elk hunting in Colorado, I had data to use my load out to 500 yards. The last day of the hunt, at 30 minutes before sundown, I looked across a canyon and saw a moster bull and my rangefinder indicated that it was 750 yards away. There was no time to stalk closer; going down the canyon, I would have lost sight of the bull. I was uncomfortable taking a shot without knowing my bullet drop at 750 yards. So, all I could do was watch the bull as the sun set and the season closed. I submitted this question so I will be prepared for this situation if it ever happens again.

#12
06-28-2009, 08:03 PM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: OK Posts: 2,145
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

No apoligies necessary JE, I respect your opinion on the subject. Your field experience outways mine, but I'm trying like hell to catch up!
#13
06-28-2009, 11:47 PM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Utah Posts: 1,377
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

I agree with Jim on a couple points.

First, there were many more experienced and serious long range people here a few years back. They have moved on because they got tired of arguing with all knowing amatuers. Second, I have zero doubt in a 750-1000 ft lb payload for elk. Been there, done that, several times in fact, as have countless others.

Argue for your limitations, and they will be yours.

Randy, I suggest you take a look at the 210. It has less drift and more energy than the 190. This makes it the better bullet in my opinion.

Kudos for passing on a shot you were unprepared for.
#14
06-29-2009, 09:51 AM
 Silver Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Truckee Posts: 293
Re: What is the minimum amount of ft. lbs needed

The drift might be a problem due to heavier bullet and twist rate stuff. I heard it was common for the 190vld in 300 win mag drifts to the right about 12" consistently @ 1000 yards because of the twist I think, but it was not the wind. My guess for the 210vld, it would drift more, but it does dodge the wind better. Just something else to consider.

Dang, hopefully you get to see another bull like that within your new range capability!

Good luck

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