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good news from AZ

 
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  #15  
Old 04-28-2010, 01:08 PM
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Re: good news from AZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas1 View Post
Interesting as in It's making me think of the pros and cons. Generally I think anything that gains us ground and makes the anti's loose ground is a good thing. As just one example Starbuck's position (supports it) on open carry in California...I'm delighted.

Then, I wonder(no facts in yet so haven't taken a position.) will it become so easy so as to minimize the awesome responsibility of carrying coupled with no training and does this eventually lead to incident/s where poor judgement and /or lack of training are maybe the root cause but instead it gives the media/anti's fuel to beat the drums about gun crazed individual blah blah...so does it have the potential to back fire. Not to mention, there's a bunch of regs covering do and don't's that can get you in serious trouble w/o even unholstering your weapon...so w/o training is it realistic that an individual/s unknowingly get arrested. As just one example: where and where not to carry.

I don't know but I've seen folks the day after Christmas with their brand new shiny auto...never having owned or used a firearm in their life come to the range, and I got to tell you some are damn right dangerous. Unforetunate as it is it's atleast at the range and so I keep the my eyes open in the back of my head. I'm not sure I'm in favor of that environment out in town and round about the neighborhood.

It's kinda got me wondering that if a person has possesion of a vehicle then issue them a license and skip the training and any background/previous driving record check.

I've introduced many to the world of firearms...family and friends and before they ever touched a firearm they got trained. I'm just not sure how Billy Bob running around town the day after Christmas plays out.

Any of this make any sense or am I just out in left field alone here wondering?
I agree that it is an awesome responsibility but
Billy Bob w/o his training will always get his hands on a gun so will the crackhead and dope dealers ! They could care less what the Law says, they always end up with a gun. So should the just man have to do without ? If an idiot walks into a resteraunt and starts blowing people away while you are setting their would you rather billy ignorant without his training help you out or not ? I would say that in this case a law abiding citizen or CWP would save more lives than harm them ! Maybe I'm in Left field.

Way to Go AZ !!!

BigBuck
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  #16  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:49 PM
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Re: good news from AZ

Bigbuck, my apologies I should have done a better job of explaining the example of Billy Bob.

Billy Bob is a law abiding citizen which most folks are, except now most of the Billy Bob's can legally carry a firearm loaded w/o training and I not sure it's a good idea to have Billy Bob anywhere near me or my grandkids in the grocery store, school, park, neighborhood etc.

Sure I understand the rest of your logic but, IMHO the odds of an accidental discharge of a firearm by an untrained individual far exceeds the Joe Thug crime scenario. Put simply I've witnessed a few accidental firearm discharges in the military, work, the range, and hunting and yet in all my years I've never been in a situation where I had to unholster and/or fire my firearm at Joe Thug.

I just wondering if we have 1000's of Law abiding but untrained Billy Bob's out there packing a firearm 24x7 and maybe boozed up or whatever(see BB may not know that's illegal cause he hasn't been trained)...are the odds of an accidental discharge greater than Billy Bob saving the day at a crime scene.

I respect your opinion but disagree. I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

Who amongst us has or would hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained? I wouldn't, would you?

Last edited by Chas1; 04-28-2010 at 03:53 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2010, 04:17 PM
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Re: good news from AZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas1 View Post
Bigbuck, my apologies I should have done a better job of explaining the example of Billy Bob.

Billy Bob is a law abiding citizen which most folks are, except now most of the Billy Bob's can legally carry a firearm loaded w/o training and I not sure it's a good idea to have Billy Bob anywhere near me or my grandkids in the grocery store, school, park, neighborhood etc.

Sure I understand the rest of your logic but, IMHO the odds of an accidental discharge of a firearm by an untrained individual far exceeds the Joe Thug crime scenario. Put simply I've witnessed a few accidental firearm discharges in the military, work, the range, and hunting and yet in all my years I've never been in a situation where I had to unholster and/or fire my firearm at Joe Thug.

I just wondering if we have 1000's of Law abiding but untrained Billy Bob's out there packing a firearm 24x7 and maybe boozed up or whatever(see BB may not know that's illegal cause he hasn't been trained)...are the odds of an accidental discharge greater than Billy Bob saving the day at a crime scene.

I respect your opinion but disagree. I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

Who amongst us has or would hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained? I wouldn't, would you?

A while ago on this site someone posted a video of a woman that had her dad shot to death in a resteraunt by a lawless criminal (with respect ) maybe you should ask her if she would have liked a so called "untrained" billy bob next to her at that time ...

I don't need a rule book to tell me that Budstupid and hand guns don't mix!
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is decieved thereby is not wise.

I think we should all agree that it is our RIGHT to keep and bare arms with or without training . If an individual feels inclined to get training that's great for that individual but I do not think we should be forced to get training. I feel like your view suggests that .

Just my .02

BigBuck
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Last edited by bigbuck; 04-28-2010 at 04:23 PM.
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  #18  
Old 04-28-2010, 06:19 PM
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Re: good news from AZ

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Originally Posted by bigbuck View Post
I think we should all agree that it is our RIGHT to keep and bare arms with or without training . BigBuck
What is the basis for this belief?

BTW-
I fully support the 2nd amendment.

Not sure if you missed my question or just avoiding it...it'll only take a second to answer with either a yes or no as it's a close ended question. So would you hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained?
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  #19  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:03 PM
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Re: good news from AZ

Chas1 I always worry where these emotion evoking topics will bring us. I think you absolutely have a good point. Who can argue that training isn't beneficial? I tend to worry more about the folks around me driving, or the kids all over being brought up is poor enviornments evidence has directly shown a clear connection between these types of things and societal ills. What hasen't been shown yet is a link between what must surely be a great number of untrained civilians carrying and increased accidents, crime etc. Maybe it's the personal responsibility involved with carrying that even Billy BOb can embrace...I'm not sure but I am sure many, many untrained people are carrying and not shooting themselves or others. I hope the freedom that they/we are enjoying is a powerful enough incentive not to screw up. Those that would or do not respect this would carry anyway if they wanted and they are the people who end up with three hots and a cot...and free education (I digress). On a lighter note I agree I don't want Billy Bob around me or my family if things go badly...however if said Mall Ninja can divert attention long enough for my family and I to reach safety maybe that is not such a bad thing! After all the herd can stand to loose Billy Bob!
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2010, 10:46 AM
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Re: good news from AZ

You say you witnessed several accidental discharges in the military. Are these people not "properly" trained ? Who is to say, who is or is not "properly" trained ? I have never heard of a set standard of training. I would think the military would have some of the best available. Anything that would exceed this (I think) would cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. LEO training may or may not be more acceptable. Everyone that has not been through a "training"
course, is not a complete idiot. Some people actually used to be taught proper gun handling from fathers,grandfathers, and other friends and relatives. You can't teach common sense. All this, of course, is just my opinion FWIW. Oh..and to answer your question..If I am in the situation where someone with a gun intends to do harm. I would much rather "untrained Billy Bob" be there with a gun, than anyone, without one.
Rant Over....
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  #21  
Old 04-30-2010, 05:55 PM
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Re: good news from AZ

bb204, Either you didn't read all my posts or your half read before going into as you said your rant. No one said that everyone that has not been through a training coarse is a complete idiot. But some might be. Nor have I used the word coarse. I've exclusively used the word training and that can come in many forms...formal and/or informal, if you'd read and paid attention to one of my earlier posts you would have known this. Remember we're talking about a Concealed Firearm and in my state that's a 4 hour coarse that costs 35 bucks but, atleast you'd know what laws your subject too and what you can and can not do and the safe handling of a firearm. Also, I never asked the question: If I am in the situation where someone with a gun intends to do harm Where'd you get that one from? I didn't ask that question but, I did make this statement: I don't want anyone near me in a shootout that hasn't had the proper training...friendly fire is just as deadly.

I did ask this question: would you hand a weapon to anyone knowing they were untrained?

Since you seem to have a problem with understanding my posts and since I don't know anyone that carrys an unloaded concealed firearm then I'll ask you this: Would you hand a loaded firearm to anyone knowing they were untrained either formal or informal? Bear in mind one of the examples I gave was the guy who the day after Christmas has their brand new shiny auto...never having owned or used a firearm. So would you?

You and others have your opinion and I respect that. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to have a different one. All I'm saying is how many Billy Bobs are out there I don't know but in my limited experience I've come across too many. Like the guy who just got his brand new shiny auto for X-mas having never touched or been around firearms his/her entire life and walks over to you with the gun loaded, and pointed at you with his damn finger in the trigger asking you how to unload it because the sign says you can't come to the firing line with a loaded firearm when folks are downrange. If Arizona wants to do away with any training requirement, more power to them. But, in my opinion and in my state 4 hours and 35 bucks ain't a big deal...is it fool proof of coarse not, there still will be some Billy Bob's out there but, hopefully a few less I've got to worry. Far to often and regretably in the news we hear about too many children or other family member fatally shot by accident in their home or thereabouts and IMHO I bet there wasn't much formal or informal training.

In case your in doubt or missed reading it in my previous post. I fully support the 2nd amendment.
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