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Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

 
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  #8  
Old 04-17-2009, 04:34 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

Su37,

The difference is minimal and your 190 gr will work just fine. I have asked Bryan Litz to respond to your question with more specifics.

Regards,
Eric
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2009, 05:08 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

[quote=ojr;276618]

B] I am using Vihtavuori n560 currently, would this be a good powder for your bullet.?

Ojr
I'd suspect that N560 is probably a pretty good combination here, but it's one that I haven't worked with personally. All of the testing and certification firing for the major OEM customers (big names, you'd recognize them all) were done with a specified charge of Reloder 15. Great powder in the 6.5x55, but honestly, it wasn't one of my choosing; it was what the customers specified. I figured a bunch of Scandinavian ballisticians probably had a better handle on what makes this particular cartridge tick than I was ever going to learn on my own, so I've been recommending RL-15 for this combo ever since. Sort of like using the old 168 gr/4895 combination in a .308 M1A, I've never seen a 6.5x55 that wouldn't do wonderfully well with this combo. I believe in letting the rifle tell you what it likes, but I'd probably start with the RL-15 and use it as a benchmark. If you can improve it from there, great. If not, you've still got a load that will probably work out quite well.

Kevin
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2009, 05:58 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

su37,
Eric asked me to address your question about the 190 vs the 210 VLD for long range hunting. As Eric stated, the 210 will be better, but of course you're interested in how much better.

When loaded to the same chamber pressures, the 190's will achieve the same muzzle energy and a higher muzzle velocity than the 210's. Of course you're not interested in the conditions at the muzzle, it's the downrange performance that you care about.

So how does the downrange performance stack up? Well, considering that the heavier, higher BC bullet (the 210 in this case) will retain velocity better than the lighter bullet, at some point the 210 will be going faster than the 190. At that point (probably around 600-800 yards), the heavier bullet will have more weight and more velocity meaning it will have more momentum and more KE. These things all favor the heavier bullet, and they do so more as the range increases, and the advantage is more important for larger animals. So for medium sized deer at 400 yards, there's probably no detectable difference between the two bullets. But for larger animals at greater ranges, the lethality of the heavier bullet becomes a more important asset.

The one advantage that the lighter bullet has over the heavier one is a flatter trajectory. The 190's will achieve a higher muzzle velocity, and will have less drop than the 210's for a great distance. Resistance to wind deflection will favor the heavier 210 at all ranges.

Up to about 600 yards, you won't be able to tell a big difference in performance (external or terminal). As the range goes beyond that, the advantage begins to grow in favor of the heavier bullet. I would say that if you're looking to kill a large animal like an elk or moose at 1000 yards, the 210's would provide a considerable advantage over the 190's. Medium sized deer at 600, not much difference. In between is gray area.

The 210's have the same ogive as the 190's so they would load to the same OAL (for magazine considerations).

You'll find there is a lot of gray area with bullet lethality. There's simply no reliable way to calculate death. I've shared with you my understanding of how the 190 compares to the 210, and I would encourage you to gather as much information as possible from all sources (Kevin...) to help you decide if you're comfortable with the 190's, or if you want to step up to the 210's. You won't be WRONG for using the 190's, but depending on your application, you might be giving yourself a little better chance at a more efficient kill with the 210's.

One thing that might make your mind up for you is that the 210's require a 1:11" twist, where as the 190's are stable in a 1:12". So if your barrel is a 1:12" than the choice is easy!

Good luck and take care,
-Bryan

By the way, are you a Russian fighter jet enthusiast, or is your handle a coincidence?
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  #11  
Old 04-17-2009, 08:22 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

Bryan thank you and Eric thank you as well for your response to my question.

It would be obvious that the heavier higher BC 210 would buck the wind better
than the 190 that I understand.

Bryan wrote,
"the heavier bullet will have more weight and more velocity meaning it will have more momentum and more KE. These things all favor the heavier bullet,"

Bryan, I can see the above being a factor if I was using a bonded or partition or X bullet and I
wanted deep, deep penetration or a complete pass through.

But when it comes to your bullets and how they behave terminally. As far as momentum I have my strong doubts that weight matters as each weight will behave consistently the same regardless, the bullets will penetrate 2" and then have a grenade effect.

Momentum comes into play when you want penetration of the animal. Bergers are not
built to do that.


Guys, I am thinking that because of HOW your bullets all behave the same that it would not matter if
I was shooting a 6.5/140 or a 30/210. The final result is going to be the same a dead animal.

Is there a velocity that your bullets will not penetrate and then open up?
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:58 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

Quote:
But when it comes to your bullets and how they behave terminally. As far as momentum I have my strong doubts that weight matters as each weight will behave consistently the same regardless, the bullets will penetrate 2" and then have a grenade effect.

Momentum comes into play when you want penetration of the animal. Bergers are not
built to do that.
Your understanding of the behavior of the berger bullets is not quite right. The bullets have a hollow point and it takes some depth before the tip tears back and expansion begins. The expansion is rapid at that point for a while and then as the bullet slows the expansion seems to stabilize and the bullet then penetrates a ways depending on how much sectional density you have. The more sectional density, then the more momentum remaining and therefore the more penetration.

The twofer on the hogs is a good example. The bullet struck a large male hog in the shoulder and passed all the way through it and then struck the pelvis of the grown sow and broke through it and exited. This means that with a high sectional density bullet you can get a lot of penetration while breaking a lot of bones. That bullet was launched at 3250 fps which is very near dusting velocity for the Bergers and yet it did not grenade even though the jacket was at very near what many believe to be stress failure.
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:38 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

Thankyou both Eric and Bryan, answers most appreciated.
Cheers
Ojr.
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2009, 11:30 PM
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Re: Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker

This is Eric's reply and my understanding of how Berger's work.

"Upon impact the VLD will penetrate 2" to 3" of hide and bone. After the bullet is through this tough surface of the animal it starts to shed its weight. Depending on impact velocity 40% to 80% of the bullets weight will be distributed inside the animal as fragmentation."

So we see 2" to 3" and the bullet starts coming apart. And then according to impact velocity
that determines how much bullet fragmentation we see which is 40% to 80%


Buffalobob says

"The more sectional density, then the more momentum remaining and therefore the more penetration."

So, if we have a 6.5/140/.287 SD bullet with the same SD as a 30/190/.286 SD bullet.
Both will penetrate the same then according to Buffalobob. Since both have the same SD.

If so,
Weight is not a factor then is it, or is it?

At 1000 yards there is less than 20 fps difference between the 190 and 210 VLD'S.
Then according to Eric, since they have the same impact speed their fragmentation
will be the same ratio BUT spreed out deeper with the 210 due to a higher SD. according to Bob.
It also obviously has more fragments to spew in it's path. 12 more grains at 40% for each bullet.
Is that a lot? I don't know.

Also, how much deep penetration is needed to kill an elk.
Both will penetrate and start expanding after 2"

I have to wonder how far in inches that 190 VLD will penetrate while fragmenting.


"That bullet was launched at 3250 fps which is very near dusting velocity for the Bergers and yet it did not grenade even though the jacket was at very near what many believe to be stress failure."

It should have to be consistent with Berger's statements.

All said,
I don't put much stock in SD which changes with bullet impact and KE which is just paper energy.

Just my musings.

And btw, I'll be using Bergers for hunting.
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