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Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

 
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  #8  
Old 10-21-2009, 06:20 PM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
So re-reading the first section of the article, should I take this solely as 'use of statistics to draw conclusions with limited data'?
Perhaps if it were titled as such..

Because in my view, the article itself 'proved' nothing.
It went unqualified with regard to the title: "Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity"...

For example, in the opening statement: "It’s a well established scientific fact that air temperature influences muzzle velocity". Well, is this true? Is it something you've qualified, taken with contrast, validated, proven and defined? Seems a foregone conclusion otherwise.
If I setup a chrono and rest at a bench, while it's 0degF out, then quickly pull a gun & ammo out of truck, set it down and fire across the chrono, will velocity be different now than it was 6mos ago while it was 90degF out?
And what if it were both a 30cal AND a 22cal in such a scenario?

I suggest a prediction might not be as simple as it seems.
Does the heater work in my truck? Does it even matter?
What if I left a 30cal gun/ammo AND a 22cal gun/ammo on the bench at 0degF for one additional hour and fired them? And 3hrs?
What if I left the guns out, but kept the ammo in my pocket between shots?
Or if only the ammo was exposed?
This is an example of CONTRAST.
It's very important because despite statistic delusion, only the truth passes ALL tests. So you cannot know the truth until you've challenged it from many many angles and validated that it still does not fail.
If you define ONE validated truth with statistics, you should take care to qualify that as such.

It just seems a stretch to understand what we're to take away from your article, thats all.
Was it a plug for Patagonia?
One more time, this article is all about Data Regression techniques, using the data most likely at hand, which is Air Temperature, used to derive MV as a result.

Any other issues, like the ones posted are not discussed, simply because that's not the central subject of the piece. That's the terrain of Interior Ballistics.

What the article explains and shows (and proves to some limited extent) is that a "Delta Spline" is the best possible method to infer interpolated/extrapolated values.

Of course, I'm not stating that other factors do not matter. Far from that.

And yes, to answer your question, it's a well established fact that Air Temperature affects MV...for the conditions given in the article.

The military (and some other independent labs) have a good number of tests (which are limited to certain border conditions) showing the correlation as stated.

In short, if you have measured MV/Air Temp pairs (KDPs) you need a technique to extract meaningful predicitions for values outside the tested range (a limited dataset).

If that's the case, well, this article exposes which techniques are best and why, in terms as simple as possible.

Now, you being the end user, is up to you to decide under what conditions the KDPs were obtained, and to repeat that same criteria when using the software.

The method(s) cannot infer nothing about the conditions, just provides the best possible math to derive a best "curve fit" to the sample data.

On the other hand, LoadBase 3.0 gives the end-user the tools to study and qualify the sample data, even to highlight "suspect" KDPs.

Statistics is a very powerful tool, but cannot compensate for erroneous criteria or bad judgement. Magical it's not.
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regards, Gus

LoadBase© Desktop & Mobile editions - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
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  #9  
Old 10-21-2009, 06:39 PM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

Mikecr,

I'm also a user of LoadBase 3.0 and I intelligently understand what Gus is clearly bringing across. Not trying to bring across, but very successfully exposed.

I don't understand your position, but then again there's a bunch of things I don't understand.

Perhaps if you read it again with the right attitude would help.
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Last edited by Eaglet; 10-21-2009 at 06:46 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2009, 07:31 AM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

there is no doubt temperature affects trajectory,and
some powders are affected more than others.
many of us leave ammo in vehicles on our hunting trips where overnight temperatures can take affect.
there are other things like wind that can affect it also.
obviously there are some who can really get into the technical aspect of all this.

for the average hunter like me for example, who dosent understand fully, or even care to, what does he do?
i think the solution is simple. if you want to shoot at long distance, always use a spotter.
who cares why you missed, you still missed. make the corrections reccomended by your spotter and shoot again.
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  #11  
Old 10-22-2009, 01:42 PM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck View Post
who cares why you missed, you still missed. make the corrections reccomended by your spotter and shoot again.
To each his own. Some of us enjoy the challenge of doing everything possible to try to place the first shot on the button. I don't claim to always do that, but I find it satisfying to understand the fundamentals and then getting it right the first time around - when it all comes together for me.

My purpose isn't to criticize. Just to point out that "different strokes for different folks" is always in-play.

Another thought I have is I often hunt by myself. I enjoy that challenge also. So the ballistic software fills an important role for me.

Either way - good hunting to ya. Hunting is an invigorating hobby.
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  #12  
Old 06-18-2010, 03:10 AM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

Use your imagination... picture me... scratching my head...

?????????

When I was in the military, the standard was adjust 1 MOA for every 20F.

The first few sentences seemed to confirm, or at least assimilate that approach.

Then I looked at this article titled "...airtemperature..." but what I think I read, was a thesis for a doctorate about data collection.

I usually consider myself a very intelligent person but that was a lot to take in....

Is there a simple conclusion to that?

Is the standard that was taught to military snipers 20 years ago correct or not?

Last edited by docv_73; 06-18-2010 at 03:14 AM. Reason: poor wording corrected
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  #13  
Old 06-19-2010, 09:00 AM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

for a hunter there is a simple conclusion, YOU MISSED. add some more elevation and shoot again.
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  #14  
Old 06-19-2010, 10:49 AM
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Re: Air Temperature Effects On Muzzle Velocity By Gustavo F. Ruiz

No yobuck, if YOU MISSED, you mgiht as well pack up your stuff & go to the house.
Then consider why it is you can't hit what you're shooting at, and what your capabilities truly are, -before venturing into further hunting...

Eventually you'll seperate yourself as a competent hunter, from menace.
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