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Savage action accurate ?

 
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  #29  
Old 05-13-2011, 11:42 AM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
I've seen at least one M14 N.M. that had N.M. peep sights shoot eight to eight and one half inch groups at 1000 yards using L.C. N.M. ammo. The whole idea kinda violates the 7.5" groups the Palma guys claim at 1000 yards. I didn't see just one target, but eight or ten targets. What's the one thing you pick out in this concept? Short medium weight barrel! This leads to a very stable barrel mount (never removed an M14 barrel, so cannot really go much deeper). Now back to the M14 a second or two. The same group of guys using Sierra bullets and brass I prepped for them, and sized with Forster .308 National Match dies and their seater shot groups that were about 5" wide and about 7.5" tall. Not bad for an M14 if you ask me. This team won the Army Reserve meets everywhere they went that year, and I'm certain that the shooters were a big part of it (be back in the mid 1990's as Ralph's been dead for about twelve years now). The barrels they used were milspec national match. I doubt much if anything had been done to the action, and the trigger pull was rather stiff.

Ralph was the Sargent Major at a military installation just south of me, and we worked together. He saw me one day working on a gauge to check neck wall runout, and asked me a zillion questions. Next day he brings in this great big target, and unrolls it to show me a group that was around nine inches (more or less). I said we need to figure out what's wrong! (I figured it was a six hundred yard target) He said it was shot on the 1000 yard range from a prone position! I made him a gauge that by today's standards would be considered rather crude, and showed him how to use it to check the Lake City ammo that was required. He comes in a week or two later with several targets that were smaller than the groups I first saw (hell I can't see a thousand yards!). A couple months later he had me make a list of reloading stuff to buy. But they had to use the Lake City stuff in the matches per rules. Kinda violates all the 30" barrel rules in my book!
gary
There's no doubt that skill is a huge factor at long range. A lot of us fixate on the minutia of technical details overlooking that simple fact.

But as a relative matter, I think benchrest rifles and palma rifles are made the way they are because they perform best in their respective disciplines.

Sorry - I didn't mean to get the thread off track. I just thought that one comment from Bart B was a little much. But, I may have taken it out of context.

-- richard
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  #30  
Old 05-13-2011, 12:56 PM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
I can't really challenge that statement because I'm not aware that anyone enters and wins benchrest competitions with a "whippy Palma" barrel. Nor do they enter and win Palma contests with a short, stiff benchrest rifle.
Of course not. The design of their stocks and sights prohibits it from a usability point of view along with how they're adjusted for wind, held on target and fired. To say nothing of the accuracy-disturbing things that take place while the bullet's going down the barrel of each type of rifle. Once one understands this, they'll understand why, in competition, one shoots 1/2 MOA or better groups and the other shoots 2-1/2 MOA groups.

As far as their inheirant accuracy's concerned, they're both equal. Not too many shooters understand this. It's pretty easy to figure out if you know what it takes to shoot good in either discipline. Especially when one's got to have a 3.5 pound trigger and the other can have a 3.5 ounce one. One gets to use scopes, the other's limited to aperture sights.

Oh, one other thing. I don't say that in every post. Usually limited to those claiming short, stiff barrels are the only road to smallest groups. I wish I had saved that picture in Handloader Magazine back in 1991 when it showed a 20-shot group from a Palma rifle that was 2.7 inches. That was fired with new cases, metered charges with 2/10ths grain spread and 3/1000ths bullet runout in a long, skinny, whippy 30-inch barrel in a pre-64 Mod. 70 action....range was 600 yards. I don't know of any, short, stiff barreled benchrest rifle's done that well for 20 conseciutive shots.

Last edited by Bart B; 05-13-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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  #31  
Old 05-13-2011, 01:05 PM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
I've seen at least one M14 N.M. that had N.M. peep sights shoot eight to eight and one half inch groups at 1000 yards using L.C. N.M. ammo. The whole idea kinda violates the 7.5" groups the Palma guys claim at 1000 yards.
This is just more credit to the 'smiths working at military shops match conditioning M14's and M1's chambered for the 7.62 NATO round. The Army, Marine Corps, Navy and Air Force rifle teams usually tested their rifles for accuracy in machine rests, or "accuracy cradles" as they were known in military circles. With a good lot of match ammo, they would shoot inside 4 inches all day long at 600 yards. So shooting under eight or so inches at 1000 is plausible. These rifles have medium length whippy barrels.

No, it doesn't violate any Palma rifle's accuracy. It almost equals it The best of todays Palma rifles will stay under 6 inches at 1000. 7.62 NATO M1's and M14's probably would, too, if it weren't for all their moving parts having to come back into battery at exactly the same place for each shot.

Last edited by Bart B; 05-13-2011 at 01:45 PM.
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  #32  
Old 05-13-2011, 03:25 PM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
Of course not. The design of their stocks and sights prohibits it from a usability point of view along with how they're adjusted for wind, held on target and fired. To say nothing of the accuracy-disturbing things that take place while the bullet's going down the barrel of each type of rifle. Once one understands this, they'll understand why, in competition, one shoots 1/2 MOA or better groups and the other shoots 2-1/2 MOA groups.

As far as their inheirant accuracy's concerned, they're both equal. Not too many shooters understand this. It's pretty easy to figure out if you know what it takes to shoot good in either discipline. Especially when one's got to have a 3.5 pound trigger and the other can have a 3.5 ounce one. One gets to use scopes, the other's limited to aperture sights.

Oh, one other thing. I don't say that in every post. Usually limited to those claiming short, stiff barrels are the only road to smallest groups. I wish I had saved that picture in Handloader Magazine back in 1991 when it showed a 20-shot group from a Palma rifle that was 2.7 inches. That was fired with new cases, metered charges with 2/10ths grain spread and 3/1000ths bullet runout in a long, skinny, whippy 30-inch barrel in a pre-64 Mod. 70 action....range was 600 yards. I don't know of any, short, stiff barreled benchrest rifle's done that well for 20 conseciutive shots.
To say that the inherent accuracy of Palma and Benchrest rifles is equal defies logic.

To reference a 20 shot group from 1991 is a weak argument.

In any case, you are very knowledgeable and I'm just learning. So, I meant no disrespect.

-- richard
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  #33  
Old 05-13-2011, 05:27 PM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
To reference a 20 shot group from 1991 is a weak argument.
Even when the NBRSA 600 yard 6 group agg record is 2.75" for 30 shots? All six of those 5-shot groups as a composite was well over 3 inches; 2.75 inches is just the average size of all of them. He's got a 2/3 MOA rifle and ammo at 600 yards that probably shoots close to 1/6th MOA once in a great while at 600. Which means the average groups' size will be somewhere between 2 and 3 inches.

So I think my "weak" argument stands up pretty good. I've got a stronger one available but not needed.

Last edited by Bart B; 05-13-2011 at 07:57 PM.
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  #34  
Old 05-13-2011, 06:40 PM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
Even when the NBRSA 600 yard 6 group agg record is 2.75" for 30 shots? All six of those 5-shot groups as a composite was well over 3 inches; 2.75 inches is just the average size of all of them.
Bart B -

It seems that we've digressed and hi-jacked this thread. So, I started a new one here...
Palma vs Benchrest?

I'm eager to learn because it seems that you know something about the subject. But, please give me averages and reasons rather than one anecdotal example from ten years ago.

thanks,
richard
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  #35  
Old 05-14-2011, 11:33 AM
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
Of course not. The design of their stocks and sights prohibits it from a usability point of view along with how they're adjusted for wind, held on target and fired. To say nothing of the accuracy-disturbing things that take place while the bullet's going down the barrel of each type of rifle. Once one understands this, they'll understand why, in competition, one shoots 1/2 MOA or better groups and the other shoots 2-1/2 MOA groups.

As far as their inheirant accuracy's concerned, they're both equal. Not too many shooters understand this. It's pretty easy to figure out if you know what it takes to shoot good in either discipline. Especially when one's got to have a 3.5 pound trigger and the other can have a 3.5 ounce one. One gets to use scopes, the other's limited to aperture sights.

Oh, one other thing. I don't say that in every post. Usually limited to those claiming short, stiff barrels are the only road to smallest groups. I wish I had saved that picture in Handloader Magazine back in 1991 when it showed a 20-shot group from a Palma rifle that was 2.7 inches. That was fired with new cases, metered charges with 2/10ths grain spread and 3/1000ths bullet runout in a long, skinny, whippy 30-inch barrel in a pre-64 Mod. 70 action....range was 600 yards. I don't know of any, short, stiff barreled benchrest rifle's done that well for 20 conseciutive shots.
just dividing the 2.7" figure by 6 gives you .45", but the group would probably be close to 20% smaller for about .36". Easy to do with five or ten shots, but pretty hard when you talking twenty shots. I think the real test is five targets with five bulls on each target. The argument went back and forth on B.C., and I sorted lurked while the argument progressed. I tried it at 100 yards more than once. I could print low threes for about six or seven bulls before a flyer bit me (used a Savage chambered in 6/250AI). Later determined to be fouling. The barrel was 26" long Douglas. Cases were no turn .243 Winchester brand, and the bullets were 105 grain Amax. I honestly thought I could pull it off. I think I shot about two boxes of bullets, before waiving the white flag! I did try exactly the same stunt with my .223 Remington 700, and could not get past the fourth bull with groups running about .41". Harder than most folks think! I have a goal in the back of my head to do this, but think I need a better round for starters. When I get my 6BG done I'll attempt it again. The test will be five targets with five bulls shot on three different days in stead of all of them shot on the sameday (makes it harder).

Now a .36" group won't win many benchrest shoots these days; as you already know. A very low twos might on a bad day. But the one thing those guys do well is the art of being very consistent. I lack that even on a good day
gary
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