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Savage action accurate ?

 
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  #22  
Old 05-11-2011, 10:50 AM
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Location: greenwood, IN
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
Gary.

Sorry I misread your post and I am happy to have not offended you . I enjoy your post as
well and have learned from them.

I am not very good at expressing my self sometimes and it may sound like It is pointed
at someone but It is not.

I try to post How I feel about a subject based on my experiences and assume that everyone
knows that it is an opinion. In this world there are very few absolutes and the only rule is -
"There is no rule".

I to have not been offended very many Times on this sight and find for the most part It is
a very friendly site. Plus I enjoy hearing different points of views especially from the guys
outside the USA because they have to play by a different set of rules. (We are very lucky).

I am not bashful about my opinion and others should not be as long as it doesent get personal.

Thanks again.

J E CUSTOM
years back I had a boss who was an avid paper puncher, and the two of us worked together on several projects. In doing this I had access to a lot of fancey equipment to see where I was going, and of course do it. Then I got involved in the 22 rimfire benchrest stuff, and that's when I knew that I knew very little! These guys are a complete generation ahead of the centerfire boys, and yet are a great bunch to be around.

The equipment I had at my disposal was similar to Chad's. (another fellow I really do enjoy around here). I was lucky in that I had six wire edms and two sinkers at my disposal (we rarely ran more than three of them at a time), so I did do a lot of experiments. Some were complete failures, and some turned out very well. Always had a pair of Bridgeports and two or three machine centers to use about anytime I wanted to. Boss liked it because I kept his machinery running, and he in turn let me do things. People that are not afraid to experiment are people that go places (my two favorite examples are Bill Calfee and Ferris Pendel).
gary
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  #23  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 32
Re: Savage action accurate ?

Wow guys Iím very new to all of this and you have gone straight over my head, but then i am still able to pick some things up. To me it sounds like both Nutted and Un-nutted have there advantages and that neither have been proven to be better than the other. Now dont get me wrong this is what i think i have pick up. but as to the original question, yes it would be beneficial if i were to get my action trued.
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  #24  
Old 05-12-2011, 10:27 AM
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Location: greenwood, IN
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by isu600rr View Post
Wow guys Iím very new to all of this and you have gone straight over my head, but then i am still able to pick some things up. To me it sounds like both Nutted and Un-nutted have there advantages and that neither have been proven to be better than the other. Now dont get me wrong this is what i think i have pick up. but as to the original question, yes it would be beneficial if i were to get my action trued.
I'm kinda like this in the argument. "if it works for you then so be it." Somebody proved a long time ago that the typical thread inside the reciever bridge was too short for a 1.06" thread diameter, and this has been confirmed many times over. Then in our time we've mostly gotten on the 26" thru 30" barrel length agenda. But in doing so we've lost the rigidity of the barrel and consistencey. Still even worse yet is the leverage factor that the long tube has on the barrel thread and shoulder contact points. We probably need about 1.38" of thread with a shoulder (or nut) diameter of about the same diameter.

If you have a reciently machined Savage action, you'll probably find that the action is very square and strait. That dosn't make it perfect, but at least your out front. There's also the trigger mounting area and the cocking device (cannot think of the right word this morning). The next real problem is that you cannot turn a barrel thread for that so called perfect contact with the internal thread. Be nice, but you'll destroy the thread the first time you install it. Yes you could lap the male and female together, but as I said you may never get it back apart.
gary
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  #25  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:14 AM
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Location: Allen, TX
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

I suppose you could factor in that rifles, barrel making, metallic cartridges, reloading, etc... are inherently imperfect. Hence, the need for tolerances and materials such as copper, lead, and brass that adapt.

It all makes for lots of variables and excellent competition whether it's you against nature or against other builders, spotters, shooters...
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  #26  
Old 05-13-2011, 05:36 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: Savage action accurate ?

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
Secondly the 3/4" or so of barrel threads is not nearly enough to support the leverage of a heavy barrel that is 26" or more in length (Applied Mechanics 101).
I and others think 3/4ths inch is plenty, at least in Win. 70 receivers. Otherwise all those high power match rifles shooting belted magnum cartridges in 28 to 30 inch heavy bull barrels wouldn't have got the 3/4ths MOA or better accuracy at 1000 yards for the life of the barrel. And the receiver's stood up enough to wear out a dozen or more such barrels. Such actions and their heavy barrels have shot test groups smaller than benchrest records. If 3/4 inch wasn't enough, the success they've had would not have happened.

What do you think happens in the barrel tenon thread area when a 30-inch long 30 caliber barrel tapering from 1.25 inch at the receiver end down to 0.90 inch at the muzzle gets the effect of gravity pulling down on it? The only thing I've seen happen is it droops more at the muzzle axis from weight than a short, skinny 22 inch featherweight sporter barrel does.

This is the correct application of Applied Mechanics 101 else it wouldn't be the way it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
Bench rest shooters like to use barrels in the 21" to 22" range because they are far more rigid (70% don't know this), and to make weight.
Barrel stiffness has little, if anything, to do with accuracy (95% don't know this). As long as the barrel whips the same for each shot, its rigidity doesn't matter. Accuracy is repeatability. If this weren't so, then why do 30 inch skinny, lightweight and whippy Palma rifle barrels shoot just as accurate as short, stiff benchrest ones do? To say nothing of those standard weight M1 and M14 match grade service rifle barrels that would hold under 4 inches all day long at 600 yards.
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  #27  
Old 05-13-2011, 10:05 AM
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Location: Allen, TX
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
[...]If this weren't so, then why do 30 inch skinny, lightweight and whippy Palma rifle barrels shoot just as accurate as short, stiff benchrest ones do? [...]
Bart B -

You say this in every one of your posts. I can't really challenge that statement because I'm not aware that anyone enters and wins benchrest competitions with a "whippy Palma" barrel. Nor do they enter and win Palma contests with a short, stiff benchrest rifle.

But since you seem to know what others have yet to figure out, then it seems like a perfect opportunity for you to spank the benchrest crowd.

-- richard
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  #28  
Old 05-13-2011, 10:58 AM
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Location: greenwood, IN
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Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
Bart B -

You say this in every one of your posts. I can't really challenge that statement because I'm not aware that anyone enters and wins benchrest competitions with a "whippy Palma" barrel. Nor do they enter and win Palma contests with a short, stiff benchrest rifle.

But since you seem to know what others have yet to figure out, then it seems like a perfect opportunity for you to spank the benchrest crowd.

-- richard
I've seen at least one M14 N.M. that had N.M. peep sights shoot eight to eight and one half inch groups at 1000 yards using L.C. N.M. ammo. The whole idea kinda violates the 7.5" groups the Palma guys claim at 1000 yards. I didn't see just one target, but eight or ten targets. What's the one thing you pick out in this concept? Short medium weight barrel! This leads to a very stable barrel mount (never removed an M14 barrel, so cannot really go much deeper). Now back to the M14 a second or two. The same group of guys using Sierra bullets and brass I prepped for them, and sized with Forster .308 National Match dies and their seater shot groups that were about 5" wide and about 7.5" tall. Not bad for an M14 if you ask me. This team won the Army Reserve meets everywhere they went that year, and I'm certain that the shooters were a big part of it (be back in the mid 1990's as Ralph's been dead for about twelve years now). The barrels they used were milspec national match. I doubt much if anything had been done to the action, and the trigger pull was rather stiff.

Ralph was the Sargent Major at a military installation just south of me, and we worked together. He saw me one day working on a gauge to check neck wall runout, and asked me a zillion questions. Next day he brings in this great big target, and unrolls it to show me a group that was around nine inches (more or less). I said we need to figure out what's wrong! (I figured it was a six hundred yard target) He said it was shot on the 1000 yard range from a prone position! I made him a gauge that by today's standards would be considered rather crude, and showed him how to use it to check the Lake City ammo that was required. He comes in a week or two later with several targets that were smaller than the groups I first saw (hell I can't see a thousand yards!). A couple months later he had me make a list of reloading stuff to buy. But they had to use the Lake City stuff in the matches per rules. Kinda violates all the 30" barrel rules in my book!
gary
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