Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Gunsmithing


Reply

Savage action accurate ?

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 05-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,644
Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
I would have to agree with Shortgrass on this one, in fact I have never seen a bench rest
rifle with a barrel nut or a long range target/match rifle ether.

The barrel nut is there to allow an operator to assemble and head space the rifle without
the necessity of a gunsmith NOT TO INHANCE ACCURACY. I have worked on lots of Savages
and they all have these short cuts to improve the ease of assembly by a non skilled worker.
The fact that they will shoot as well as they do is a tribute to there barrel quality.

It is a great rifle for the price and in most cases they shoot well, and I'm all about getting
a hunter/shooter into as good a rifle as they can afford.

I hope I haven't offended any of the savage guys because It is just my opinion and we are all
entitled to our opinions. That's what makes this a great site, you can read many different
opinions and decide for your self.

J E CUSTOM
the gist of the question was accuracey for sure, but nobody has ever proved that a barrel nut is not at least as accurate except in the factory class benchrest shoots. They are now called "the Savage Line." If you goto an F Class meet you will see lots and lots of barrel nuts, and they win on a regular basis. But there is another way to do a barrel nut that will make it even stiffer yet. The problem with the shoulder lockup is that there is no way to support the internal thread after the shoulder seats. No matter what you do the thread is gonna have .003" or more flex in it when you spike it with 60K PSI, and add a rigid bolt face that cannot stay square with the chamber centerline. Works OK, but could be a lot better.
gary
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-09-2011, 04:56 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,624
Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
the gist of the question was accuracey for sure, but nobody has ever proved that a barrel nut is not at least as accurate except in the factory class benchrest shoots. They are now called "the Savage Line." If you goto an F Class meet you will see lots and lots of barrel nuts, and they win on a regular basis. But there is another way to do a barrel nut that will make it even stiffer yet. The problem with the shoulder lockup is that there is no way to support the internal thread after the shoulder seats. No matter what you do the thread is gonna have .003" or more flex in it when you spike it with 60K PSI, and add a rigid bolt face that cannot stay square with the chamber centerline. Works OK, but could be a lot better.
gary

Apparently you have been offended by my post and I am truly sorry, but the fact remains that
every Savage I have worked on has Improved dramatically, Whether it was the shoulder make
up or just the care of truing every part possible.

I am retired and have no ax to grind with Savage,and only build a few rifles a year because I
enjoy doing it.In fact Savage is one of the favorites to work on because it can be improved and the
owners are allways very happy. Some of these rifles are known shooters and the owners just
want them to shoot better. The last one was a consistant 1/4 MOA rifle and is now a 1/10 MOA.

I don't know how to measure how much flex a barrel or the connection has (You stated something
like .003) but I do know how to make it consistant and as solid as possible and the proof is in the
accuracy and the consistency.

The only brand that I have not figured out 100% of the time is the Ruger with the angled recoil
lug. Some have and I bare no malice against them just because I can't make them perform to my
standards every time,But I just don't feel comfortable guarantying 1/2 MOA on them. But I do on
the Savages.

Depending on the barrel length and weight I will add bedding up to 1" in front of the recoil lug
for More support and with the barrel nut you cant bed this area and all of the support that you
are supposed to get from it limited by the threaded length the rest is a sleeve to cover the
threads and offers no support.

So I will continue doing what I do until such time I find a better way to improve accuracy. It
is a judgement call and If I am accountable for the accuracy of my work I do not use the barrel
nut and if a person wants me to leave the barrel nut I will, I just won't guarantee accuracy of
1/2 MOA or less.

I hope this explains the reason I recommend doing away with the barrel nut and what I base
my opinion on. Real world experience

Again :Sorry if my opinion differs with yours. Nothing personal.

J E CUSTOM
__________________
"PRESS ON"

Last edited by J E Custom; 05-09-2011 at 05:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-09-2011, 06:00 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: OK
Posts: 2,145
Re: Savage action accurate ?

The quality of the tube has more to do with it than the way it is fit via nut or nutless. I personally feel the nutless fitting is the "best" way of fitting a barrel, cosmetically and for rigidity.

Although my nutted remington prototype has yet to be shot It will be soon.
http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall...ch_CSR_LRB.jpg
Not your normal nut system, this particullar barrel has no threads and the nut goes over the outside of the reciever.

John Dunbar set a new range record at eau-claire with a 200 15x a couple of weeks ago in 600 f-class. The 7saum is fitted with-out a nut and a 30" barrel.

So with all the savages w/nuts in f-class, this particular rifle beat them all in past history shot at that range. Including all the custom actions. But that might have somthing to do with this particular shooter, as he is very good.


a few less the nut;

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall...uracoatCSR.jpg

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall...age_Muscle.jpg

This one is said to be the most accurate rifle the customer owns, and he owns 4 custom BR rigs.

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall...e_P1010003.jpg

this one has a one shot kill on a lope at over 900 yards.

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall...rux_Muscle.jpg


this one is missing the recoil lug;

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall..._Broughton.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-09-2011, 07:04 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Watertown, SD
Posts: 322
Re: Savage action accurate ?

I am a big believer in the nut, I have nutted remingtons, winchesters, a CZ, and I am working on a Howa. Why? why not? I like a challenge and my customers like the option of just calling me up and ordering a replacement barrel for what ever they may shoot. Here are a few pics of the CZ I recently did.





Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-10-2011, 12:15 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,644
Re: Savage action accurate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
Apparently you have been offended by my post and I am truly sorry, but the fact remains that
every Savage I have worked on has Improved dramatically, Whether it was the shoulder make
up or just the care of truing every part possible.

I am retired and have no ax to grind with Savage,and only build a few rifles a year because I
enjoy doing it.In fact Savage is one of the favorites to work on because it can be improved and the
owners are allways very happy. Some of these rifles are known shooters and the owners just
want them to shoot better. The last one was a consistant 1/4 MOA rifle and is now a 1/10 MOA.

I don't know how to measure how much flex a barrel or the connection has (You stated something
like .003) but I do know how to make it consistant and as solid as possible and the proof is in the
accuracy and the consistency.

The only brand that I have not figured out 100% of the time is the Ruger with the angled recoil
lug. Some have and I bare no malice against them just because I can't make them perform to my
standards every time,But I just don't feel comfortable guarantying 1/2 MOA on them. But I do on
the Savages.

Depending on the barrel length and weight I will add bedding up to 1" in front of the recoil lug
for More support and with the barrel nut you cant bed this area and all of the support that you
are supposed to get from it limited by the threaded length the rest is a sleeve to cover the
threads and offers no support.

So I will continue doing what I do until such time I find a better way to improve accuracy. It
is a judgement call and If I am accountable for the accuracy of my work I do not use the barrel
nut and if a person wants me to leave the barrel nut I will, I just won't guarantee accuracy of
1/2 MOA or less.

I hope this explains the reason I recommend doing away with the barrel nut and what I base
my opinion on. Real world experience

Again :Sorry if my opinion differs with yours. Nothing personal.

J E CUSTOM

you have never offended me! I actually enjoy your input more than most folks that post here. Some of your ideas are very good, and of course some I think differently. That's what makes it so interesting. There's been exactly one post ever on this board that rumpled my feathers, and now I just grin!

A few years back a bunch of friends and I ran some tests on barrel flex due to an email I recieved from Dan Lilja. Mostly I just didn't believe what he had to say all the way, but as usual Dan was spot on. I made a block out of 8620 steel that had three threads cut in it. 1.06-16, 1.06-18, and 1.06-20. I then drilled and taped two #10-32 holes on one side of each thread, and cut a slot to also allow me to be able to clamp the thread form in place later. Then I took two pieces of steel and turned threads to match the threads in the block for the best fit I could achive. Each bar was about 16" long, and started out as 1.25" in diameter. With the shoulder seater and the block clamped down on a surface plate, I was still able to flex it slightly by had. I then turned the OD down about three inches, and made a nut. It had about 40 in. lb. of torque on it. There was less flex (less than one half for sure). There was no difference between the 1.06-18 thread and the 16 thread that I could see. The third piece of steel was a cut off savage barrel that was junk. With the factory nut torqued to 40 in. lb. I got the same results as the other with a nut. The flex was greatly reduced to about 25% of what it was before when I clamped the block around the thread, but the difference was much less noticable with the savage barrel.

All this got me to thinking, and the boss and I got the folks upstairs to give us a mechanical CAD program (my boss was an avid target shooter). In my spare time I built a couple generic actions that were similar but for the barrel thread setup. Boy did I learn how far out in left field we really were! I then started playing with different chamber pressure spikes, and the program showed me what was happening in micro seconds. Kinda scarey. I then built an action that had a 1.25-24 thread with a bridge diameter of 1.75" on the PC. Same results exactly. But with the stretched thread the nut was still leaving the shoulder, but with a fraction of the amount. (all threads were setup with about .004" total clearence which is very tight). But even after leaving the shoulder the barrel thread stayed in place due to a constant contact with the female thread form. With zero rotational torque the shoulder setup flexed far less, but with a small rotation added the barrel thread tried to rotate just like the bullet does. The one with near zero clearence flexed a lot less. Then I kicked up the pressure spike to real world pressures (65K), and I could see the bridge moving as well as everything else (note: the bridge was spec'd as 4350 pretreat steel with a 28-32rc). This when I learned that the barrel was actually twisting as the bullet was pushed thru it, and then sorta unwound behind it (bolt tried to to the same thing by the way). So I build another action setup with 1.25" of female thread, but with a counter bore in it that's 1.062" x .25" deep to help keep everything strait. Big difference with the shoulder lock up! The thread form was still flexing, but the barrel was not moving all over the place nearly as much up and down. This worked so well that at two guys I know built actions off that idea. I know it's long. but that's how I came up with my ideas.

I have seen quite a few Savages shoot in the mid threes right out of the box. I don't figure it's the barrel nut, but a better quality barrel. I have had one that would dip into the 3/16" area on a rare occassion, and was always good for high twos and low three's. Yet I've never seen a Savage shoot better with a barrel seated off the shoulder, but I have seen more than one Remington shoot better with a barrel nut. I know this is unscientific because the barrels were not the same in either case.

As for the recoil lug: I said it once before that I was doing the wedge setup almost fifteen years ago. I'm kinda convinced that the recoil lug that Savage and Remington use is the weak link, but on the otherhand I do not have a better idea without a completely new action.
gary
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 2,608
Re: Savage action accurate ?

As for the OP....

How does the rifle shoot now?

Do you aready hand load?

Do you have a place to practice 1000+?

If it already shoots sub-moa with high BC bullets, then you're all set to go have some fun.

If you want to go win competitions, then you may need to throw down some cash to get in the running.

-- richard
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-11-2011, 08:07 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,624
Re: Savage action accurate ?

Gary.

Sorry I misread your post and I am happy to have not offended you . I enjoy your post as
well and have learned from them.

I am not very good at expressing my self sometimes and it may sound like It is pointed
at someone but It is not.

I try to post How I feel about a subject based on my experiences and assume that everyone
knows that it is an opinion. In this world there are very few absolutes and the only rule is -
"There is no rule".

I to have not been offended very many Times on this sight and find for the most part It is
a very friendly site. Plus I enjoy hearing different points of views especially from the guys
outside the USA because they have to play by a different set of rules. (We are very lucky).

I am not bashful about my opinion and others should not be as long as it doesent get personal.

Thanks again.

J E CUSTOM
__________________
"PRESS ON"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Savage action accurate ?
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Savage Scout .308 Winchester or Savage Barreled Action (Staggerfeed) steest2010 Guns For Sale 7 07-07-2011 09:48 PM
savage short action bolt head vrs long action foreign The Basics, Starting Out 4 07-02-2010 11:42 AM
Accurate Action? 700man Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 8 01-04-2010 09:50 PM
Brno zkk602 magnum action accurate enough? casspir Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 0 10-03-2009 08:58 PM
action choice, auto accurate enough for caliber? jhk Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics 0 07-01-2007 07:12 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC