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??? Reamer Holder ????

 
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  #8  
Old 06-13-2010, 12:22 PM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigngreen View Post
That and I think Chad Dixon has said a couple times to do it with the tool holder. This may not even require a floating holder but an adjustable fixed holder.
I'll tinker with it more today!! A lathe is one of the best big boy things ever
A lathe is one of the best big-boy toys for sure! I sure have enjoyed playing with one on a hobby basis for the last 60 years (I started on the 9" South Bend Model A that is still in my shop under my Dad's supervision when I was 8).

Chad is very very good at what he does - IMO as good or better than the best on the planet over all the processes associated with rifle building from muzzle to buttplate. With his lathe he doesn't have a choice, he pretty much has to use the tool holder on that really nice CNC lathe of his - I don't think it even has (or needs) a tail stock. One doesn't want to have their fingers anyplace near one of those things so it has to work with the door that has the bullet proof glass closed. He needed a holder that he could use with the door shut. And he has worked out how to do that with out compromising quality or accuracy in any way.

That said, while it absolutely can be made to work on a manual lathe, I'm not sure that's the best way on a manual lathe. It might be, but I'm not sure of that. I may try it one day just to see how it works. One could use a pusher like mine feeding with the carriage aligned using Chad's alignment procedure, or a Manson Holder (which I think is a good tool, it just cost more than the one I made for a bit of time invested), or the holder that Greg Tannell sells (much like the one Chad made). If one has a muzzle flush coolant system, which I think Chad uses, his approach might be the method of choice.

Fitch
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  #9  
Old 06-13-2010, 02:19 PM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

Thank for posting more details on you method Fitch, it really helps me get a feel for what I'm going to have going on when chambering and what things will help get repeatable accuracy.

I've looked at the Bald Eagle holder at PTG and it looks like the same basic concept as Fitch's.
I have also looked at the Manson holder but can't quite see how it functions in the pic, if anyone is using one I would appreciate a better pic or description of it's function.
Also looked at the PGS holder I think, I can't find the link now.

I have been pouring over Mike Bryant's web page, which I have found very good info at. I have also been looking at the Gre-Tan page, he has a reamer holder and a video on getting your tail stock set up right for reaming, it maybe worth the money.

I should also mention if any one has a take of .277 cal barrel that I could buy cheap for practice let me know, I don't feel good about practicing on a good barrel
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  #10  
Old 06-13-2010, 03:22 PM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigngreen View Post
I have also looked at the Manson holder but can't quite see how it functions in the pic, if anyone is using one I would appreciate a better pic or description of it's function.
The one I looked at my buddies shop is basically two flat disks, one pushing on the other, coupled for torque reaction by two posts. The disk holding the reamer is restrained from turning by two shouldered bolts that screw into the push plate that is in the tail stock. It compensates for parallel misalignment much lke the one I made does. Also, just like mine, it doesn't compensate well for angular misalignment between the tail stock quill and the spindle axis. The parallel misalignment is allowed for by some slop in the slots for the bolts that transfer the torque. I think it's best installed with the bolts vertical because horizontal alignment is easier to atain than vertical on most lathes. If the tail stock is in perfect alignment vertically today, it won't be tomorrow after some wear takes place.

I liked the design (and cost) of mine better for me, but the Manson and the Bald Eagle have worked well for folks chambering rifles all over the planet. The Bald Eagle retains the "feel" benefits I get with mine but I don't like the inherent instability of it's design. To see what I mean, lay a pencil on your desk. Take one finger and push straight on the eraser. Unless you make corrections with your finger, the pencil will get crooked and then turn clear around as your finger passes it by. The operating principle of the Manson and one like mine are like laying something shaped like the letter "T" down and pushing on it with two fingers an inch or two apart on the top of the "T". The "T" will stay in contact with the fingers and pointed in the right direction - it will self correct for disturbances that want to make it change direction because the finger on the side it tries to move to will push it back in the other direction.

That said, I did chamber my first barrel (a .22-250) using a poor man's Bald Eagle pusher, I was pushing on the back of bolt stub machined round and screwed into the back of the reamer with a flat surface held in the tail stock while I restrained it from turning with a sawed off (so it could spin freely if it had to) end wrench, and the chamber came out just fine. So an inordinate fixation on perfection in the pusher doesn't seem to be warranted. As long as you align the bore with the lathe spindle axis and don't force the reamer to go someplace else by pushing on it with a dead center in the tail stock, it will pretty much do what it should.

There are three reamer holders that make sense to me. The Bald Eagle, one like I made (the least expensive), and the Manson. I didn't like the concept behind the GreTan holder which, as I understand it, has no built in compensation for parallel misalignment so I didn't persue making one like it. It apparently works great if you have your tail stock perfectly aligned and it holds that alignment as the quill is extended. I don't, the quill on my lathe's tailstock doesn't, and can't be reasonably made to do so, so I don't use it or one like it.

Quote:
I should also mention if any one has a take of .277 cal barrel that I could buy cheap for practice let me know, I don't feel good about practicing on a good barrel
Good idea! Good candidates for finding used barrels are benchrest shooters, especially those shooting barrel burner calibers like 6.5-284. I picked up a used A&B barrel chambered in 6mmBR for $40.00 to use for practice. I sawed off the chamber, rechambered it from 6mmBR to .243Win and put it on a Savage Model 10 that had an awful factory barrel with the idea that it would be a throw away barrel.
It shoots so well I've not been able to make myself take it off the rifle! It's my backup chuck gun for windy days or long fields when/where the .17Rem won't work so well.

Last week I picked up a used Bartline 6mmPPC barrel for nothing that I'm going to rechamber for practice during shop season this winter. I'm thinking of making it into a 6x45 just for fun.

You have a real thrill in store for you when you chamber your first barrel and it shoots bug holes. Gets the heart rate right up there it does. Combining lathes, shooting, and hunting, is about as much fun as one can have.

Fitch

Last edited by Fitch; 06-13-2010 at 03:33 PM.
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  #11  
Old 06-13-2010, 05:50 PM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

bigngreen, the pusher holder JE Custom mentioned is made and sold by RockJag4 on the 6mmBR (Accurate Shooter) website. I have one of them, and have a 6.5 x .284 chamber to test it on. It appears to have minimal radial float, but looks like it will be very easy to use, and as Fitch said, will give good "feel" on the reamer. I've used a Clymer floating holder, but it doesn't let you feel the reamer torque, so I want to try something that does. In my opinion, the place to start is to get the tailstock quill as perfectly aligned as possible, no matter which holder you use. Mine took 3 sessions (many hours), but is parallel and axial to .0005 in 12". It is .002" high until I clamp it hard on the ways, then that is where the .0005" comes from. I move the tailstock back and forth several times, wiping the ways dry before clamping it down, but it is still .0005" high. I can't consistently work any closer than that anyway, so I drilled, reamed, and installed two # 7 taper pins to lock in lateral location of the base to body joint. So if I need to kick the tailstock off, I should be able to return it to the alignment I have now. I hope.

I can't comment on using the carriage/toolholder to hold the reamer. Thought of it, but decided to go with aligning the tailstock instead. Good move for about 100 reasons.

Take a look at RockJag's holder. Simple and well made.

Tom
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  #12  
Old 06-13-2010, 10:22 PM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

Thanks for more good info!! I checked out RockJag's reamer holder and it looks good and the price is right, it's on the short list now!
I kinda like the idea of just making one, it will help me learn the machine and gain some skills while making useful tools.

Riddle me this, what surfaces are contacting in the above holder of the Bald Eagle? Is there a flat surface in the reamer side and the round point on the tail stock side that allows there to be movement or is it bearing on the shoulder like Fitch's?

I know I can get the tail stock aligned horizontally fine but the vertical will be a challenge. To that end it may help if I can get another question answered. Can I set the tail stock in one position, lock it down and just run it in and out to ream and clean or do I need to slide the whole works back. I have 4 in to work with.
Part of my problem is I don't have an indicator that is fine enough, I should have it this week though so I can measure with some precision.

I was going to work on the tail stock today but had to work with my other "iron", I picked up a yearling buckskin horse today, he's the first link in my pack string for getting to better elk country. I'm jacked, I haven't worked with a horse before it was big enough to auger me into the dirt, I think I will have good results with this one though
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  #13  
Old 06-14-2010, 12:13 AM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

It has a ball end tenon on the pusher and a slightly larger ball socket in the back of the reamer holder. As I said, it appears to have very limited (if any) radial float, so your tailstock quill will have to be very close to true with the spindle. RockJag said it has radial float, but I don't see it.

Don't count on any holder correcting very much misalignment. Too easy to wallow out a chamber.

Any vertical misalignment should be under .001" when the tailstock is clamped down. I'd be surprised if it's that much. Not much I know to do to correct vertical.

On moving the tailstock, you probably won't have to move it just to cut short chambers, but you will want to in order to inspect the chamber every so often, and for checking headspace. Then you'll have to unlock the tailstock and slide it back. I believe that Fitch positions and locks his carriage down as a stop for the tailstock. Start out with the tailstock bumped against the locked carriage, and when you pull the tailstock back, you can return it to position by bumping it against the carriage again. I'm going to start doing it. If you use a Manson or Clymer floating holder, and you have only 4" of travel, I think you will end up having to relocate the tailstock, maybe for every cut when you get down close on a long chamber, like a RUM or a big Weatherby. You have to pull the pilot clear to do a good cleaning between cuts. I haven't used the pusher yet, but it might eliminate the need to slide the tailstock back and forth. I don't know yet. In the end though, you will have to move the tailstock out of the way to screw the action on and set headspace made up handy in the lathe.

I agree with Fitch on doing the work yourself. I hate working on stocks, but the lathe work is a lot of fun (when you get it right).

Tom
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  #14  
Old 06-14-2010, 05:40 AM
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Re: ??? Reamer Holder ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by specweldtom View Post
It has a ball end tenon on the pusher and a slightly larger ball socket in the back of the reamer holder. As I said, it appears to have very limited (if any) radial float, so your tailstock quill will have to be very close to true with the spindle. RockJag said it has radial float, but I don't see it.
That sure doesn't sound like a good holder design to me, and I'll explain why I think that.

The ball tenon in a ball socket won't have radial float which is exactly what is needed to compensate for a high tailstock. You might as well use a dead center into the back of the reamer as a ball tenon in a ball socket. If the tailstock isn't perfectly aligned it will force the reamer off center causing an enlarged chamber. The chamber oversize will in theory be about double the tailstock misalignment - that is not good. Not good at all.

I agree, if you use the RockJag holder you need the tail stock quill to be perfectly aligned to start and it must stay that way through out its travel. In other words, the tail stock quill centerline must be perfectly aligned, and extension of the lathe spindle centerline. Getting two lines aligned is much harder than aligning a point with a line. It must also come back to the exact same alignment after being moved to clean the reamer and reclamped. Deviations from perfection will be multiplied by two in the chamber diameter. The other bad thing about an oversize chamber is it may allow a thin chip to be trapped between a reamer flute and the chamber wall and gall it resulting in a very rough chamber finish. There is nothing good to be said about an oversize chamber.

The Manson, Bald Eagle, or one like mine don't require perfect tailstock alignment, that is what makes them useful. The most tolerant are the Bald Eagle and One like Mine.

That said, it is very important to note that none of them, repeat NONE of them, tolerate or compensate for misalignment of the barrel in the headstock - that needs to be dead nuts every time. (I am a huge fan of Gordy Gritters alignment technique.)

Every manual lathe I've ever seen comes from the factory with a tailstock quill that is .003" to .005" high on purpose. The reason for that is so it wears into perfect alignment and can take a lot of wear before it goes beyond usefulness below the spindle centerline. They can all be aligned to be centered front to back, the problem is them being high. A pusher that has some radial alignment tolerance will easily handle the tailstock being .005" high. One that has a ball tenon in a socket won't handle any misalignment at all - it's just the same as pushing the reamer with a dead center - just not as sharp if you bump into it with your hand.

Fitch
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