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Firing Pins

 
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  #8  
Old 03-27-2011, 11:09 AM
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Re: Firing Pins

Lock time is not that bad of a problem. consider the whole package. No barrel movement from the time you bump the triger till the BULLET LEAVES THE MUZZLE AND THE PROPELLANT GASES NO LONGER INFLUENCE IT. I have tested more powerful springs and all they do is add to impact vibration. Even firmly clamped in 3500 LB. milling machine the shock wave or vibration is powerful enough that you will not want to subject good measuring tools to that much energy. Get a light weight pin and spring combo or be counter productive.
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  #9  
Old 03-27-2011, 01:49 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: Firing Pins

Will try the titanium pin, while also am thinking of drilling out my pin about 50% and leaving a .050 wall. I have mixed feelings on both points( spring replacement or lighter pin).
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  #10  
Old 03-28-2011, 03:12 PM
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Re: Firing Pins

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainey64 View Post
Will try the titanium pin, while also am thinking of drilling out my pin about 50% and leaving a .050 wall. I have mixed feelings on both points( spring replacement or lighter pin).
Fluting the pin would be better.

J E CUSTOM
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  #11  
Old 03-29-2011, 07:46 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Re: Firing Pins

The National Match AR-15 uses a big ol clunky hammer to initiate the firing process.

Lock time sucks when compared to sexy hot rod bolt guns.

Modern bolt guns use high energy springs, reduced weight strikers, petite cocking pieces, etc. All in the effort to make that time on a watch between the sear releasing and the initial spark of ignition as few ticks on the stopwatch as possible.

Put two HighMasters side by side on the 200 at Perry, one armed with a NM AR15, the other with a "race car" bolt gun and watch them duke it out.

It'll go something like this:

If it's a reasonably decent day the scores will be 198 or better and the X count will be somewhere between 45 and 60 percent.

The SR shooter will bitch about the heavier trigger, the post front sight, and the ergonomics of the rifle when fired off the shoulder. He may have a sneering remark about the slower 223 compared to the 6mm "supah bad azz" that he's gotten used to shooting. Maybe that's what got him the dropped point. A switch that he didn't catch that resulted in a ringer 9 where's the 6mm would have squeaked in a scratch 10.

The bolt gunner will likely comment how great aperture sights, light two stage triggers, 6mm bullets/cartridges, adjustable stocks, and the longer barrel to get the better sight radius is when compared to the AR. He'll finish with a little grin knowing he won by a point or an X.

I'd be very surprised to find either of them bitching about lock time. Highpower guys can't wait to get the distinguished badge so that they can ditch the service rifle and get into a bolt gun. I promise anyone its not due to lock time.


In 20+ years of doing this that includes multiple trips to Camp Perry, Phoenix, Raton, Beyers, Bailey, Butner, Quantico, Pendelton, Wilcox, the OTC, and Coalinga I've yet to see it.

From my chair the fuss over lock time exists predominately in the land of keyboards, mouse pads, and monitors.

The one exception I'd agree with is smallbore 3 position. Here you have a cartridge traveling roughly 1/3rd the speed. Meaning it loiters in the barrel up to 3 times longer than a centerfire. At this point anything is going to be beneficial and so hairs get split.

Even still, I'm betting Matt Emmons focuses more on fundamentals and mental conditioning than he does lock time.

Last then I'll shut up. Go to a Home Depot and find me an aluminum or titanium hammer and/or set of punches. You won't cause both are horrible material choices for a part designed to whack things over and over and over and still hold its shape afterward.

Keep it real and enjoy your Tuesday,
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  #12  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:25 AM
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Re: Firing Pins

Quote:
From my chair the fuss over lock time exists predominately in the land of keyboards, mouse pads, and monitors.
Chad,

Excellent points!!!

Glad you found time to post between trigger squeezes.

Thanks!
Richard
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  #13  
Old 03-29-2011, 11:05 AM
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Re: Firing Pins

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
Chad,

Excellent points!!!

Glad you found time to post between trigger squeezes.

Thanks!
Richard
I tend to agree with you, but also dissagree with you as well. With a long action gun it does make some difference, and with some short actions it's nearly worthless. A Remington short actions seems to gain a little bit, but nothing like the computer whizzes claim! (they only figure the mass in the bolt body, and not everything else in the equation). In a short action Savage; you just wasted a bunch of money! A 788 Remington is also a complete waste of time and money. In a Winchester there's some improvement. I think a MK. V. Weatherby would really gain a bunch if somebody did one. I saw some improvement in a long action Savage, but also think I created another monster at the sametime. I know of nobody that has done one in a long action Remington, but it makes sense to me.

Everybody here is talking titanium firing pins, but there's also aluminum. I've done both, and speed wise I see little if any difference. But I think the titanium might just add some harmonics into the equation. Looking back at the rifles I've done; I don't think the light weight firing pin is the answer, but I do think a better spring is a plus. I can't prove it, but I'm kinda thinking that a light weight firing pin with a super heavy spring tends to bounce on the primer's anvil (note: there is nothing in the make up to prevent it from a multistrike). I think the solution is a completely new bolt design with a device to push the firing pin back as soon as it strikes the anvil. Wire or flat wound springs are also the wrong way to do this. The react slow, and have their own built in set of problems.
gary
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  #14  
Old 03-29-2011, 11:58 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 753
Re: Firing Pins

With an ultralight striker and a spring with more snort all your doing is robbing Pete to Pay off Paul.

The mass is still there, only now its suspended and free to buzz after each shot.

A certain amount of impact energy is required to deliver consistent ignition. General Hatcher back in WWI did all this research (Hatcher's notebook) and it hasn't changed in the last century.

What I can tell you is in 2003 I watched a US Palma Team member during a practice at Camp Butner start stringing from one end of the 8 ring to the other due to a change to the fire control on a RPA Quadlock action. He went with a custom made wiz bang spring and striker. This session served as a really good test tube for me as it was about as controled an environment as a guy can hope for.

We had that day:

20+ of the best long range marksmen in the world present, about a 1/3rd of which are coaches as well.
20+ of the best long range rifles in the world present
Several thousand rounds of custom tailored ammuition fitted for each rifle present
A known distance
A given set of conditions equal to all shooters present on the firing line at any particular moment.

Sudden alarming changes in performance can be intelligently reduced to just a couple things at this point:

Divine intervention
Equipment failure
Shooter fatigue. (it was 3 in the afternoon during this particular session)

When the factory parts were put back it, he went right back to making little holes all over the X and 10 ring.

Go do the research yourself. Trace archive photos of Camp Perry 75-90 years ago when the 03 Springfield action was the reigning king on Rodriguez Range. Take a look at the targets. 03 SF actions have a lock time that's measured with either a calender or sundial when compared to the hot rod sexy stuff out there today. The groups aren't all that different and I'm betting if I built a rifle on a 03 action today the performance increase would be because of better barrels, ammunition, and understanding/application of marksmanship fundamentals.



Wheels are still round regardless if you make the rim 20" with 2" of rubber or 15" with 7" of rubber. The only difference is ride quality and how many chicks you get.

C.
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Last edited by NesikaChad; 03-29-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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