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Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

 
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  #8  
Old 03-08-2012, 11:54 PM
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Location: S.E. Michigan
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Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowpro440 View Post
Buy a ruger 10/22 and replace the hammer [this will help with trigger ]
look at the gaurdian 22 suppressor $ 189-$229 + $200 tax stamp + sherriffs background check $18 or so . The guardian has been compared to the silencerco sparrow . The 10/22 barrels can be bought on line already threaded in a heavy contour.
10/22 Ruger with a snot stock, everyday 225 bucks. Replace the internals with a Vloquartsen T2000 drop in trigger group, firing pin and spring 200 Bucks. All kind of Barrel oprions, most threaded 100 bucks on up.

fantastic target rifle. I use mine for benchrest rimfire every summer.

I suggest Wolf Match Extra ammunition. It's actually manufactured by Lapua for Wolf with Vitavouri powder. Great stuff, very accurate.
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2012, 03:52 PM
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Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

I own a Ruger 10/22 and a CZ 452 .22LR.

You can dink with the Ruger 10/22 all you want and spend far more than the cost of a CZ 452/453/455, and it will not outshoot an out-of-the-box CZ rimfire.

I kill twice as many prairie dogs in a day with a CZ 452 than with my 10/22 and expend far less ammo.

A CZ rimfire comes with a trigger that would be considered a custom trigger on other rifles. An experienced gunsmith will tell you that some of the parts in a CZ rimfire trigger will be superior to some custom trigger parts.

They guys at Scheels in Billings have taken their Anschutz and CZ rimfires to the target range, and saw no difference in the results. The only difference is the price and nicer cosmetics on the Anschutz rifles. They sell both brands and have no reason to tell lies.

I use my CZ 452 almost all the time now. I only use the 10/22 to blow off trash plinking ammo that isn't good enough for my CZ 452 while hunting.

You can still find CZ 452 rifles with the 16" barrel threaded for a suppressor if you look around. They are a far better deal than dinking with a 10/22 if you run a suppressor.

A semi-auto with a suppressor runs very dirty and in the case of the Ruger 10/22 you will be taking your mags down and cleaning fouling out of them very often, as well as cleaning out the trigger group much more often. A bolt rifle is a far better choice when using a suppressor. The gas leak in a loose semi-auto rimfire chamber will partially negate the benefit of a suppressor at the shooter's ear. Out of thousands of rounds fired, I have never had to clean my CZ 452 mags.

I have used my magnum .25 cal BSA Lonestar PCP air rifle at the prairie dog towns with and without the suppressor. It makes absolutely no difference in number of PD's killed. The ballistic crack from a supersonic bullet or pellet scares a PD far more than the muzzle report, which is very minor at 100 yards. You can ditch the suppressor and save some weight. This also applies to subsonic .22LR ammo, which sounds almost identical to a magnum PCP air rifle muzzle blast.

When taking head shots at PD's at 60 yards or less (guard dogs peek above their burrows and allow you to get that close), the BSA Lonestar will connect more often than the 10/22 will unless shooting Wolf Match Target or something similarly expensive. The best JSB Match pellets cost 4 cents each in quantity in .25 cal, and less in .22 cal. Nothing in rimfire comes remotely close in price except trash bulk .22LR which is not suitable for PD hunting.

The Benjamin Marauder is similar in accuracy to a BSA Lonestar or R-10 or Scorpion or Sportsman HV or Hornet. You can shoot the air rifles inside with sufficient pellet trap.....in your basement. My Lonestar shoots through 1.5" pine board (2x4) and will shoot through a roof with 3/4" lumber overlaid with shingles, or through several layers of sheetrock.

A .25 cal Crow Magnum hollowpoint pellet that has the nose cavity slightly enlarged will accept a small rifle magnum primer. I'm not telling you to do this, but I saw a video on Youtube and the damage it did to 3/4" plywood was impressive. A big hunk of wood was blown out of the back side of the plywood. I'm wondering what the effect would be on brain shots. It must be rather deadly, because many states expressly forbid explosive pellets for game hunting. When we were kids, we took the white tips off matches and packed it inside the nose of hollowpoint pellets and Scotch taped over it. It was explosive on contact with a hard object. Of course, every varmint animal that I brainshot with a standard .25 cal roundnose pellet has dropped on the spot, no exceptions. Primers cause inaccuracy in pellet noses, and thus reduces deadliness if any appreciable distance is involved. Might work as a Coup de Grace on a wounded animal. My varmints are dead when I walk up on them after brain shooting them with a .25 cal pellet. The guy who uploaded the Youtube video of primered pellets was using a much weaker breakbarrel air rifle and was not shooting for groups. I suspect the pellets were grossly inaccurate. He should get a PCP rifle before dinking with primered pellets.

Guys who have bad experiences with air rifles are almost universally dinking around with trashy breakbarrel air rifles. Barrels wobble back and forth when you push them a bit, overlubed and dieseling, etc. I went to every big sporting goods store in Billings, and found not one hunting class PCP air rifle, not even a Benjamin 392 multi-pump PCP which is the low end of acceptable.

Don't forget that suppressors hold moisture and will rust your barrel if you don't know how to store a suppressed rifle. This applies to PCP air rifles and firearms equally.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2012, 05:54 PM
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Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

Interesting post. In as much as my only experience with any air rifle was blowing out porch light bulbs at my grandmothers house when I was a kid with a Crossman Co2 rifle (and my dad kicked my butt...lol), No comment there, however......

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAL Shot View Post
I own a Ruger 10/22 and a CZ 452 .22LR.

You can dink with the Ruger 10/22 all you want and spend far more than the cost of a CZ 452/453/455, and it will not outshoot an out-of-the-box CZ rimfire.

That's debateable and entirely your opinion. I prefer American made firearms as CZ isn't. Neither is an Anschutz......

I kill twice as many prairie dogs in a day with a CZ 452 than with my 10/22 and expend far less ammo.

22 rimfore is so cheap compared to any certerfire ammunition, that even in Wolf Match Extra, the cost in nothing.

A CZ rimfire comes with a trigger that would be considered a custom trigger on other rifles. An experienced gunsmith will tell you that some of the parts in a CZ rimfire trigger will be superior to some custom trigger parts.

Volquartsen or Kidd triggers and components give a 10-22 a true target trigger, plus again, the components are American Made, Volquartsen is in Iowa and Kidd in Texas.....

They guys at Scheels in Billings have taken their Anschutz and CZ rimfires to the target range, and saw no difference in the results. The only difference is the price and nicer cosmetics on the Anschutz rifles. They sell both brands and have no reason to tell lies.

I'm sure, however a tricked up 10-22 is still cheaper than an Anschutz, can't speak for a CZ....

I use my CZ 452 almost all the time now. I only use the 10/22 to blow off trash plinking ammo that isn't good enough for my CZ 452 while hunting.

Spoken like a true biased user......

You can still find CZ 452 rifles with the 16" barrel threaded for a suppressor if you look around. They are a far better deal than dinking with a 10/22 if you run a suppressor.

Again, I prefer to 'dink' with domestically made products not European imports....

A semi-auto with a suppressor runs very dirty and in the case of the Ruger 10/22 you will be taking your mags down and cleaning fouling out of them very often, as well as cleaning out the trigger group much more often. A bolt rifle is a far better choice when using a suppressor. The gas leak in a loose semi-auto rimfire chamber will partially negate the benefit of a suppressor at the shooter's ear. Out of thousands of rounds fired, I have never had to clean my CZ 452 mags.

A Ruger 10-22 magazine as well as a Ruger 10-22 action is very simple and quick to clean. The action can be pulled from the stock by removing one screw and replaced and accuracy replicated by repeating the torque value on that screw....

Cleaning a 10-22 action and magazine is simply a matter of cleaning with non-chlorinated aersol brake cleaner, a 2 minute job. No biggie......

I have used my magnum .25 cal BSA Lonestar PCP air rifle at the prairie dog towns with and without the suppressor. It makes absolutely no difference in number of PD's killed. The ballistic crack from a supersonic bullet or pellet scares a PD far more than the muzzle report, which is very minor at 100 yards. You can ditch the suppressor and save some weight. This also applies to subsonic .22LR ammo, which sounds almost identical to a magnum PCP air rifle muzzle blast.

When taking head shots at PD's at 60 yards or less (guard dogs peek above their burrows and allow you to get that close), the BSA Lonestar will connect more often than the 10/22 will unless shooting Wolf Match Target or something similarly expensive. The best JSB Match pellets cost 4 cents each in quantity in .25 cal, and less in .22 cal. Nothing in rimfire comes remotely close in price except trash bulk .22LR which is not suitable for PD hunting.

The Benjamin Marauder is similar in accuracy to a BSA Lonestar or R-10 or Scorpion or Sportsman HV or Hornet. You can shoot the air rifles inside with sufficient pellet trap.....in your basement. My Lonestar shoots through 1.5" pine board (2x4) and will shoot through a roof with 3/4" lumber overlaid with shingles, or through several layers of sheetrock.

A .25 cal Crow Magnum hollowpoint pellet that has the nose cavity slightly enlarged will accept a small rifle magnum primer. I'm not telling you to do this, but I saw a video on Youtube and the damage it did to 3/4" plywood was impressive. A big hunk of wood was blown out of the back side of the plywood. I'm wondering what the effect would be on brain shots. It must be rather deadly, because many states expressly forbid explosive pellets for game hunting. When we were kids, we took the white tips off matches and packed it inside the nose of hollowpoint pellets and Scotch taped over it. It was explosive on contact with a hard object. Of course, every varmint animal that I brainshot with a standard .25 cal roundnose pellet has dropped on the spot, no exceptions. Primers cause inaccuracy in pellet noses, and thus reduces deadliness if any appreciable distance is involved. Might work as a Coup de Grace on a wounded animal. My varmints are dead when I walk up on them after brain shooting them with a .25 cal pellet. The guy who uploaded the Youtube video of primered pellets was using a much weaker breakbarrel air rifle and was not shooting for groups. I suspect the pellets were grossly inaccurate. He should get a PCP rifle before dinking with primered pellets.

Guys who have bad experiences with air rifles are almost universally dinking around with trashy breakbarrel air rifles. Barrels wobble back and forth when you push them a bit, overlubed and dieseling, etc. I went to every big sporting goods store in Billings, and found not one hunting class PCP air rifle, not even a Benjamin 392 multi-pump PCP which is the low end of acceptable.

Don't forget that suppressors hold moisture and will rust your barrel if you don't know how to store a suppressed rifle. This applies to PCP air rifles and firearms equally.
A suppressor will only retain moisture of the supression media is moisture absorbent.

I have a couple rimfire pistols for indoor match (all Rugers and all tricked up by the way) as well as a 10-22 carbine, again tricked up. All are fun to shoot and cheap to shoot compared to my centerfire firearms, but other than hunting paper (with them), I've never hunted anything on 4 legs except with centerfire...
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  #11  
Old 06-18-2012, 02:39 AM
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Location: Frankfort, Kentucky
Posts: 314
Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

I know it's been a while, but an NFA shop has teamed up with a lawyer firm to offer NFA trusts for $99. I haven't talked to the firm, or confirmed that the offer is still there. But, that brings the total down to $1050-$1300

$50 threading
$100 trust
$200 stamp
$180-500 can
$520 ammo
$1050-1300

Buy a 9 oz. CO2 tank from Academy or Walmart, and hope that the extra Co2 will keep the temp drop down for the air rifle
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2012, 10:59 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 93
Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

What was the final decision on this?

I have both suppressed .22LR's, springer air rifles/pistols, and PCP rifles/pistols. In all what do you want to do with the rifle, to hunt if so what will be the quarry and distance? If you want to just shoot paper then the decision would be easier to make. What is the budget?

Some observations with spring ram rifles:
As mentioned springer air rifles are alive and well and ARE not going to disappear anytime soon and are far from being "archaic". Springers are advantageous for follow up shots when compared to pump up pneumatics like Benjamin/Sheridan/Crossman varieties and are quieter to shoot. The disadvantage of most springer rifles is you have one power setting where the pump up pneumatics can be variable based on how many pumps you use. Any of the HW rifles can give you a excellent trigger and outstanding accuracy and the price matches the features and power levels. The HW97K is a fixed barrel underlever that has won many FT competitions stock out of the box. The regular break barrel HW30/HW95are no slouches when it comes to accuracy or power, nor will you find an owner that says it's a POS. RWS/Diana's are a little more affordable but are not as refined as the HW's, Diana has the newer T06 trigger models which can equal the HW Rekord triggers, a very good thing out of the box. Diana/RWS has a M460 model which is an underlever and offers more power and better balance than the sidelever series. Diana does have a recoiless sidelever M54 and M56 models, these actions slide in rails and upon firing, the entire action slides in the stock to minimize recoil and taming the shot cycle. (this SLEDGE recoil mechanism is known to be brutal on scopes.) HW does not have a recoiless model but they DO have a gas-piston model, which has a different shot cycle experience. Air Arms has the TX200 and Pro-Sport, both of which are pretty much as advanced as a springer can be. The TX200 is a underlever model and is VERY popular with the Field Target crowd due to the accuracy, balance, and firing behavior. In other countries power output is limited/licensed and at 12ftlb most air rifles can still obtain clean 40m head shots on squeezers. Most springers here are above the 12ftlb power level...

PCP's are an entire different game:
Tanks, shops with compressors, hand pumps, shoebox, hoses, adapters, high pressure compressors, and the cost of everything. ONCE everything is purchased then yes they are nice and extremely accurate with even faster followup shots if it is equipped with a magazine and can offer more power and play nicer with scopes. MOST PCP's are going to be LOUD, and because of that most are being made with internal moderators to quiet them. Some guys make silencers for airguns for this reason and call them Lead Dust Collectors. Just about all manufacturers have a PCP available and depending on features and who makes it the prices can vary from entry-level to Anshutz, Steyr, Daystate, Ripley, Whiscombe, Theoben, and DAQ's. Most PCP's also have some sort of adjustments for power levels and some do not.

In my area you cannot discharge a firearm in city/county limits, so even with a suppressor it is still illegal. So this opens up the airgun option, my collection:
RWS 240 - .177 youth sized plinker, break barrel spring ram, (nephews present)
RWS 34 - .177, break barrel spring ram, trunk gun with synthetic stock, Hawke 2-7 scope
RWS 34 - .22 newest addition, synthetic stock, maybe peep rear sight
RWS 48 - .177, sidelever spring ram, my first quality air rifle, peep rear sight..
RWS 52 - .22, sidelever spring ram, open sights
RWS 54 - .22, sidelever spring ram recoiless, Hawke 4-12 scope
FWB 300S - 10m Match air rifle, sidelever spring ram recoiless, diopter sights
Air Arms S410 - .177 PCP repeater, rifle length and factory moderated, Hawke 3-9 scope
Air Arms S410 - .22 PCP repeater, silencer, compact and discreet for transport, Hawke 4-12 IR
scope, red hawglight LED torch
Walther LP201 - .177 PCP, 10m Match pistol
Pardini K10 - .177 PCP Match pistol
HW45 - .177/.22, spring ram pistol, dual power levels and 2 barrels for caliber changes
(5 of these airguns were purchased NEW, rest were used)

For just plinking, quick practice session, or quick dispatch of a vermin then a springer and tin of pellets is all that is needed. For night time rat dispatches or a special reason then I will use a PCP. I prefer hunting with a PCP as they are lighter than a spring piston rifle and are easier to shoot as they are less hold sensitive. (Do a quick snap shoot resulting in a miss with a springer compared to a PCP due to not holding it tight against my shoulder.) The Air Arm PCP's get on average about 30 shots per fill stock, if you add an aftermarket regulator and tune the mechanism then that can be stretched to almost double that or more... I also prefer the .22 for hunting, the raw knockdown power and small critters is never an argument but for paper punching it is the .177 that is grabbed off the rack. .177 pellets are much cheaper than the .22 variety but the .22 variety is easier to load if you have large finders and hand issues...

For Rimfires, I have a CZ 452, BRNO Model 4, Nordic NC22 on a built Spikes Lower. Shooting with standard velocity ammo or CB Longs does not bother me, with high velocity ammo and hunting I go with a suppressor or ear muffs...
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2012, 06:32 AM
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Location: Frankfort, Kentucky
Posts: 314
Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

Decision has not been made yet. I am swaying towards the can route, but talking to the law firm, the price isn't $99, but will be $500 because of my situation.
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  #14  
Old 09-02-2012, 10:20 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Re: Rimfire suppressor or adult air rfie? A breakdown with a question

I am not certain as to the local laws where you are, but in North Dakota an air rifle is considered a firearm. It is not sold as one in the sense of paperwork; but as far as the police and DNR are concerned it is a firearm.

From my readings on various air rifle forums I feel rather confident in saying most municipalities consider them to be firearms, in much the same way as ND.

I only mention this as you said an rifle is not a firearm.

As for an air gun, depending on what you are looking to do with it a PCP is not your only option. I have a RWS 350 Magnum in .177 that shoots 8ish grain pellets at a little over 1000 fps and a RWS 48 in .22 with a lube tune that chronies at a little over 800 fps. If you do your part right and put the pellet where it bell gas these will kill at 50 yards easily. They are also not very loud and totally self contained, no compressor needed. The model 48 can be had in .25, but that is hard to come by.

Regardless of the power source your air rifle uses, you HAVE to keep your velocities below the speed of sound. The pellets were not meant to go that fast, and the pressure wave created by passing the sound barrier will upset there flight path.

You will also find that for the utmost in accuracy you will be shopping for the pellet your particular gun likes best. I have seen some threads that indicate one pellet brand is better at distance x while another is better at distance y through the same gun. Also, while all the pellets may be for a .22, the head size is important too. Your .22, which is 5.5 mm, may like 5.52 or 5.54 over the other head sizes. Some pellets can be bought presorted, others you will be sorting.

PCP guns aren't hold sensitive, while spring guns are. Once you find how your gun likes to be held you must shoot it the same every time.

Air rifles have been around a very long time. Lewis and Clark used them. They can be quite accurate and they can be quite frustrating too.

I am not trying to scare you off air here, more of just trying to help you decide by letting you in on what affects accuracy and such with the air gun. Shot placement is absolutely critical as you have no hydrostatic shock to make up for being a little off. It is recommended that every shot be a head shot on our quarry so as to be absolutely certain it is dead.

If you are set on PCP, my recommendation would be an Air Force Condor. I don't have one, but when I do go that route that is what I will acquire. They are quite modifiable and can be built into exactly what you need them to be.

Check out Airguns GTA - Air Rifle - Air Pistol for an absolute wealth of information on airguns. There is also the Dianawerk collective and the yellow forum (just Google airgun yellow forum).

I hope I have helped in some small way, and that you find the correct product for your needs.

Good luck!
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