Muzzle loader disapointment

[whopperstopper]

Originally Posted by ATH

The other option, which costs half as much, is the 200gr Shockwave. While the BC is slightly lower, it can be pushed as fast as you want (3000fps+ in a smokeless one). The Precision Rifle bullets WILL lose accuracy somewhere in the 1800-2000fps range. Push the ML up another 15gr of powder with the 200 Shockwave and you'll outshoot the PR bullet for less money.

Both perform well terminally. I shot the 195 DC for a couple years, it is a good bullet I just got fed up with the velocity limitation and price.

I shoot a SavageMLII and with 41grns of IMR 4759 the 200grn Shock Wave doesn't even make it out the barrel. I can't get that that bullet to go 25yds without coming apart. The 250 can handle it but the problem I found with them is consistent weight. I checked 3 boxes of Shock waves and bullet weights that ranged from 249.1 up to 252.3. I use PRbullets and have weighed over 100 of them. If it says 235grn then it is whether it be the QT or the Dead Center. I shoot both 235QT and the 260 Dead Center and flat out love em. Pack of 12 QTs is 10$ and Dead Centers are 14.99. ( Cabelas) or you can order straight from PR. If shooting Smokeless it is a good idea to use MSBs(MagnumSubBases) I think $6 per 50.

[edge]

Originally Posted by whopperstopper

I shoot a SavageMLII and with 41grns of IMR 4759 the 200grn Shock Wave doesn't even make it out the barrel. I can't get that that bullet to go 25yds without coming apart.
SNIP.

WHAT?

No way the bullet is coming apart at that velocity! If you are shooting a 50 caliber rifle and trying to get a 40 caliber bullet to shoot you are asking for trouble! With most smokeless loads you should NOT try to shoot a bullet more than 0.050 less than bore diameter!

In a 45 caliber that bullet gets shot at over 3,000 fps with no problem.
I have been shooting smokeless in ML's for 9 years and your problem is without a doubt sabot related

edge.

[ATH]

Originally Posted by edge

WHAT?

No way the bullet is coming apart at that velocity! If you are shooting a 50 caliber rifle and trying to get a 40 caliber bullet to shoot you are asking for trouble! With most smokeless loads you should NOT try to shoot a bullet more than 0.050 less than bore diameter!

In a 45 caliber that bullet gets shot at over 3,000 fps with no problem.
I have been shooting smokeless in ML's for 9 years and your problem is without a doubt sabot related

edge.

+1, you are blowing the sabots trying to shoot a .40cal in a .50 with smokeless. Works great with bp subs, but not smokeless. My smokeless is a .45.

[whopperstopper]

OK I understand what you're saying about the sabot on the .40 cal 200grn shock wave. I never tried the sub bases on that. The 250 grn .45 cal shock wave was fine just could'nt get comfortable groups at 100. Now my question is, why can I shoot PRbullets in range from 185grn-260grn in .40cal and have no problem with the bullet. I have tried 4 different sabots on the 250 shock wave and after the first shot I either needed a hammer to load them or a full clean. The QT and the Dead Center both load the same whether it's my 2nd shot or my 3rd shot. Cecil Epps from PR recommended the .40/.50 260grn Dead Center.

[edge]

IMO, a pure lead bullet is not really designed for the acceleration of smokeless powder...especially in a sabot!

I guarantee that if you took a high speed photo of the bullet emerging from the muzzle that it does NOT look the same as when you loaded it!
I would venture to say that the lead has extruded out of the slots in the sabot and the bullet nose has slumped considerably.

The 40 caliber jacketed bullet is too strong to slump enough to keep it in the sabot.
IMO, if you recover a sabot that you shot a 40 caliber XTP that you will find a nice round hole through the base.
Drop the velocity down to about 1800 fps and you will probably get good groups.

A magnum base may or may not work, but it is not really a good solution...IMO.
Use a .452 or .458 bullet in a 50 caliber or perhaps try the new Thor bullets in 50.

edge.

[ATH]

Originally Posted by whopperstopper

OK I understand what you're saying about the sabot on the .40 cal 200grn shock wave. I never tried the sub bases on that. The 250 grn .45 cal shock wave was fine just could'nt get comfortable groups at 100. Now my question is, why can I shoot PRbullets in range from 185grn-260grn in .40cal and have no problem with the bullet. I have tried 4 different sabots on the 250 shock wave and after the first shot I either needed a hammer to load them or a full clean. The QT and the Dead Center both load the same whether it's my 2nd shot or my 3rd shot. Cecil Epps from PR recommended the .40/.50 260grn Dead Center.

It's not the bullet, it's just the math of the bullet+sabot diameter compared to your bore. If the SWs are tight, your sabot is too big. That's it. They make thinner sabots for tighter bores.

Not only does PR seem to ship with sabots sized on the small side, but the all lead bullets they will deform and go down the bore easier if the fit gets tight. I'm curious how fast you are pushing them accurately, I have never broken 2000 fps with those bullets in any gun and maintained any reasonable accuracy. For me, that sort of velocity limitation was frustrating with bp subs, and totally negated the advantages of smokeless.

[edge]

I have shot the 300 grain QT bullets over 2500 fps. I hit a small deer and only got a few inches of penetration and a wound about 8 inches in diameter! needless to say that was my last usage of them

Now, while I can't PROVE that the pure lead bullets are badly deformed as they leave the muzzle at high velocity, BUT when I was shooting thinly jacketed bullets I had problems and would bet that a lead bullet would deform at even lower velocities!

These pictures are of a 8mm 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunter shot from a custom .50 smokeless ML @ around 3,000 fps.

Virgin bullet and one recovered from a deer. Notice the base expansion.


This shows the shape of the sabot and why the bullet took the shape that it did.



edge.

PS these were very accurate, but obviously the BC was drastically altered. I have since switched to an Accubond with its very thick copper base and moved the petal break points to below the bullet base.