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Good load gone bad?

 
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2012, 10:13 PM
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Location: Coldwater michigan
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Re: Good load gone bad?

This last time I was shooting I had wind in my face and not much at all. When I first got my prohunter I was using the 200gr shockwaves 120gr blackhorn win 209 primers. Every time I shot groups wih it, I'd seriously have 1/2" 3 shot groups everytime. I was tickled as h$&l Then the sabots were a really light colored blue and loaded super easy as compared to before where they fit real snug. Then groups went to 3 1/2". Tmz are showing promise especially with 115 gr. they are about 1 1/2" but my confidence is south from an occasional flyer in every group. Ill experiment more.
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  #16  
Old 12-17-2012, 07:36 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NE MI and a lake with no fish
Posts: 390
Re: Good load gone bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatyrem View Post
This last time I was shooting I had wind in my face and not much at all. When I first got my prohunter I was using the 200gr shockwaves 120gr blackhorn win 209 primers. Every time I shot groups wih it, I'd seriously have 1/2" 3 shot groups everytime. I was tickled as h$&l Then the sabots were a really light colored blue and loaded super easy as compared to before where they fit real snug. Then groups went to 3 1/2". Tmz are showing promise especially with 115 gr. they are about 1 1/2" but my confidence is south from an occasional flyer in every group. Ill experiment more.
If you're shooting 115grs of BH209 by WEIGHT..... you're exceeding the maximum load recommended by Western. By WEIGHT..... the maximum load is 84 grains!!!!!!! I never caught that when you posted that in post #8 and evidently no one else did either......... YOU'RE WAY OVER CHARGING. Unless I'm reading it wrong.............

It appears that you're not converting volume to weight properly and you should start IMMEDIATELY. The conversion number is (.7) With a maximum load that Western states is 120grs by volume you calculate it like this....... 120 Volume X .7 = 84grs weight. If you want to weigh out and shoot 115grs volume, you would take 115 Volume X .7 = 80.5grs weight.

You are over charging and beyond it being dangerous, you're wasting propellant and if you're having fliers, that could be one of the contributing factors.......


What seems to have been determined by many shooters of Encores or Pro Hunters, is that most of them shoot the most accurate and with tighter groups, when shooting between 100grs and 110grs VOLUME of BH209. That range seems to work the best for the Encore platform rifles.

I have a specific load for my Pro Hunter and I can assure you, it shoots better than my ageing eyes. On my good days, it'll shoot 1/4" groups at 100yds, 3/4" groups at 150yds and less than 2" groups at 200yds. But.... that's on the days where I'm doing MY job and I'm not getting any younger. I've also done $35 worth of modifications to the rifle, which make it a much more accurate rifle too. EVERY Encore platform rifle IMO should have these modifications, which greatly increase accuracy and shrink group sizes. If you're looking for the ultimate grouping from your Pro Hunter, for about $35 and a little time, its ALWAYS good money spent!

I shoot 107.1grs VOLUME or 75grs weighed. I use the Barnes 250gr TMZ bullets and CCI209M primers. When shooting for tight groups, I twist the 1/8" drill bit into the breech plug flash channel after every 6th shot, then fire just a primer through the rifle, then shoot and repeat the process. I also seat the bullet HARD on the powder with a solid "thump". Actually, when using a precision force gage, I seat 105# +/- 5#.

I'd suggest backing down on the propellent and start using one of the magnum primers, either the CCI209M of Federal 209A. The magnum primers ignite BH209 better and certainly more usefull in extreme cold weather, of which we sure as heck haven't been having......
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:15 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Coldwater michigan
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Re: Good load gone bad?

I apologize for that post as I did kind of think it may cause alarm until after I posted it. I was meaning 115gr volume that is weighed for consistency. I do weigh it at 80.5gr and have now since I found that from charge to charge it can vary quite a bit when measuring by volume and pretty much always weigh my charges out (when I can) and also get real tired o the powder clinging to the powder measure which is another reason I weigh it.
Your other point, which I plan to remedy, is with the ramrod as I have to keep switching the jags around (time consuming) and this gets old so ill be looking to solve that too.
I happen to be very particular when I shoot and I tend to be very picky when it comes to how well my gun shoots. Most people I know that I talk to about this with say " oh your fine with how it shoots and well within kill zone on a deer". But I'm not happy with that. This brings me to my next point about seating pressure and with tmz's being very difficult to load I think I am getting very inconsistent loading pressures and I am interested in finding one of those gages you mentioned earlier. Where can I find one of those?
It is just too bad that certain things have to change when they are going good cuz when I was using those 200gr shockwaves and 120gr (volume) blackhorn I was never happier cuz I though it was very odd to get 1/2" performance from a front stuffer. Maybe I'll try different sabots with those shockwaves again.
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  #18  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:36 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: roanoke,va.
Posts: 233
Re: Good load gone bad?

Meatyrem, I still think you need to find out what the bore diameter is. Those new sabots could be thicker, not just a color change. I don't know how you find out about the sabots except to contact the makers; but using Cerosafe is an easy way to find your bore size. Knowing that will aid you in picking the best combo of sabots and bullets for that bore. It's a shame the ones you had such good results got changed! It makes me wonder...
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  #19  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:50 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Coldwater michigan
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Re: Good load gone bad?

Well I did notice when I sent them at the store and decided to pick up a few boxes. Instead of a deep dark blue color, they were a much lighter color. They loaded way easier almost with no effort (making me think they are thinner) kind of like the easy glides but without the name change. It made me suspicious then and when I shot them it confirmed my suspicions when they flew I to a group the size of a softball from 1/2". I like the tmz's because if their streamlined shape (polymer tipped boat tail) and want to stick with those and I also like the structure and performance with the Barnes. Not that I had any problems wih the 200gr shockwaves (other than no longer shooting well) as they expanded great.
Where can I find the seating gage you speak of?
What is cerosafe?
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  #20  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NE MI and a lake with no fish
Posts: 390
Re: Good load gone bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatyrem View Post
Well I did notice when I sent them at the store and decided to pick up a few boxes. Instead of a deep dark blue color, they were a much lighter color. They loaded way easier almost with no effort (making me think they are thinner) kind of like the easy glides but without the name change. It made me suspicious then and when I shot them it confirmed my suspicions when they flew I to a group the size of a softball from 1/2". I like the tmz's because if their streamlined shape (polymer tipped boat tail) and want to stick with those and I also like the structure and performance with the Barnes. Not that I had any problems wih the 200gr shockwaves (other than no longer shooting well) as they expanded great.
Where can I find the seating gage you speak of?
What is cerosafe?
Before you shell out over $800 for a precision gage, then learn the proper way to use it to check forces, I'd JB that bore or use any of the other polishers. Measuring forces isn't just a simple task and there is just ONE way to do it and ALL other ways are totally wrong and provide extreme inconsistent (wrong) readings. Some shooters on other forums use things like bathroom scales and think they're getting accurate readings. I retired from a career as an Ergonomist and during that time, measured tens of thousands of force measurements, using very precision tooling. I assure you there's the right way and all others are wrong.

Save your $800 for bullets and such. You'll be much happier and save yourself a ton of money. Back down on the charge just a little also.

Have you done the following:
  • If your hinge pin will move by hand, its to loose. If it just taps in lightly with just a few taps, it could also be to loose Replace it with a larger hinge pin and tighten up the frame to the barrel
  • Completed a trigger job reducing the trigger pull, polishing the sear and eliminating creep
  • Installed a trigger over travel screw
  • Changed the locking bolt spring to a HD spring
  • Changed out the stock firing pin spring to the HD spring
  • Replaced the factory 30# hammer spring with either a 44# or 51# spring, which will shorten lock time
If you can work with small parts, have some mechanical ability and can follow directions, you can do your own trigger work, which saves you money. If you would rather not, then you should have someone else experienced do that for you. If you do your own work, you'll have about $35 plus shipping invested. If you want a professional to do the work on the trigger, I believe Jim charges $75 or there about and he'll install the trigger over travel screw. These changes IMO are a very small price to pay for an outstanding outcome. I know many people that have made these changes and will flat out tell you, it was the best money ever spent. Its like having a complete new rifle!

EVERYTHING..... you need to know about the T/C Encore platform rifles and turning a good rifle into a great rifle, can be found on one single site and by people that know the Encore platform rifles better than ANYONE in North America is right here: Home Mike also recommends Jim Hendershot for trigger work: Index.htm
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  #21  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: roanoke,va.
Posts: 233
Re: Good load gone bad?

Meatyrem, I don't know about the seating gage, but Cerrosafe is at Brownell's. A 1/2 pound is $24.99 to non dealers. It will last you forever! Follow the directions and it's really easy to use. It should a big help in finding out what sizes you need.
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