Easy boys, your stealing a thread here that is just opinions on the table. Nobody should be calling anybody out and there should be nothing but constuctive criticism and good info. Be kind, shoot strait and be safe. I'll apologize for both and we can move on with discussing rifles.
All rifles out of the box are capable of being accurate. Just some require more work than others. I find with Ruger, Winchester, Remingtion, Sako, Tikka, and many others that require some tinkering with the triggers or help from the gun smith. The advantage on the Savage is the accu-trigger which is proving to be the ultimate in out of the box trigger systems that other companies are trying to duplicate. (i.e. Rem. X-trigger, Marlin's adjustable trigger, etc.) I have heard good things and bad on all.
So it remains a discussion of personal preferance. No one rifle FROM a factory is essentially better than another, UNLESS it is performance specific such as target models, and tactical rifles that have been created for the very purpose of pinpoint accuracy. Most rifles out of the box are capable of less than 1MOA with the proper ammunition.
I agree all this guy asked about was the 204 not your opinion on how bad savage or remington suck. Maybe you guys need to get a dounut pilow for your hemroids before you sit down at the computer next time! This site is here to help people by letting them ask questions and get respectful experience from another member. Hope you guys are in a more respecful and professional mood next time.
Don't know why more people aren't buying CZ rifles, if they care about quality and accuracy.
Scheels in Billings can't keep CZ rifles in stock. They never come back with warranty issues and they usually outshoot the Kimber and Cooper rifles. One Scheels salesman owns CZ , Cooper, and Kimber and admits the CZ is a tiny bit more accurate than either, for half the price. In the rimfires, they say CZ is just as accurate as Anschutz for half the price. One Cabelas salesman owns 4 CZ rifles and loves them and is looking to buy more. Both my CZ centerfire rifles are nail drivers and easily print 1/2" groups with decent ammo. None have been modified, strictly out of the box. My CZ 452 is WAY more accurate than my Ruger 10/22, and will outshoot most Ruger 77/22 rifles for about $200 lower cost.
CZ 527 and CZ 550 rifles will come with the Single Set trigger and need no further work for match grade performance. Even when fired normally, the trigger is better than say a Ruger M77, being lighter with no creep. The triggers break like a glass rod....just what you want. The chambers and bores are hammer forged at the same time on the same mendrel and are absolutely concentric. This is why you see very little variation among CZ rifles. A separate machining operation that MUST be done very precisely is eliminated and is performed only when building a new mandrel, which is rarely done only after a thousand or more barrels are forged, and then done with extreme care.
As for factory rifles not being able to shoot 1 MOA out of the box, somebody has been buying junk rifles and/or using junk ammo if that is their experiences. Even my brother-in-law's Ruger M77 MkII in .22-250 shot a 0.25" group and a 0.3" group when I tested 16 different handload combination. It is absolutely box stock and does NOT have a trigger as nice as any CZ rifle I have shot. 6 of the 15 groups I shot were 1 MOA or less and I was shooting on a windy day or more of them would have been 1MOA or less.
Most people are ignorant when it comes to cleaning guns and the first thing I do is clean the bore with something like JB or Remington 40-X before I test for groups. My brother-in-law's M77 bore was the color of a shiny new penny before I cleaned it, and after polishing the barrel with 40-X is shined like a silver mirror and it developed no further copper fouling as I shot a string of over 50 shots for the ammo test groups.
I also properly torqued his loose stock screws and the scope was properly mounted after the "professional" mount job at Shipton's was discovered to have not seated the front scope ring properly.
If I can get a bunch of sub MOA groups out of a light barrelled, plastic stocked Ruger M77 with cheesy heavy trigger, you can just imagine what my CZ 527 .223 Kevlar Varmint with Single Set trigger of about a pound weight and heavy target grade barrel is capable of, not to mention the one in .204 Ruger. A CZ 527 that can't print groups that are covered with a dime at 100 yards is either a defective rifle (not likely), has the wrong ammo, or more likely has somebody pulling the trigger that knows diddly squat about making a rifle perform to full potential. If you can't get a box stock CZ varmint rifle to print 1/2" groups, you need to question yourself before you question the rifle. CZ dealer after CZ dealer tells me they NEVER have warranty issues with CZ rifles and every one has turned out to be a nail driver. The hardest thing is finding CZ rifles in stock to look at, as they are becoming legendary for accuracy up here in Montana where accuracy counts.
I also have a metric FAL semiautomatic in .308 that prints 0.9 MOA groups at 200 yards (average of 5 groups, one group was under 0.5 MOA), and it's box stock Springfield Armory with a heavy trigger except for the addition of a Limbsaver X-Ring deresonator, which I paid $10 at Ft. Thompson in Little Rock, Arkansas. The dealer says he sells out of them on a regular basis. Those things work if you get them in the right spot, but a CZ rifle needs them like an Eskimo needs ice cubes.
Savage rifles I examined did not seem to be of the same level of precision of a CZ rifle. CZ should be compared to Sako, Anschutz and such as far as mechanical precision is concerned. They are tighter than a Kimber that I examined. My precision tool and die maker friend agreed. The new FN manufactured Winchester Model 70 and Browning X-Bolt are barking on CZ's heels as far as precision build, and that's about the only other two I would consider in the CZ price range. Remingston, Ruger, Tikka and Savage just feel sloppy by comparison.
What is this I heard about a plastic Tikka magazine costing around $60??? Maybe more for Sako???
I thought the CZ mags were expensive at around $45 at Midway, but at least you get an all-steel magazine. I paid $37 for a 5-round steel CZ 452 mag at Shipton's, but at least it's sturdy enough to run over by a truck or a horse to step on with reasonable expectations it will be functional. Plastic 10-round mags were $30, and that's still a hefty price. Sako/Tikka magazine prices seem more than a bit out of line. The CZ 452 is a high production military training rifle made for decades, and that probably accounts for the overbuild (stronger than an Anschutz) construction and more reasonable price compared to other guns in its class I looked at, like the Ruger77/22 and Browning T-Bolt.
In the Ruger, for $200 more, I would have gotten investment cast receiver instead of the billet steel receiver of the CZ 452. For $900 in the Weatherby (by Anschutz), I would have gotten a fancier stock but a gun that shoots no better, according to those who own both rifles. For $150 more you can upgrade to the Single Set trigger in the CZ 453, which is usually not available in the competition. Look at all the target competitors these days shooting .22LR, and you will see more CZ 452/453 in the listings than any other currently produced rifles. If you think the top Savage models are competition, just handle them both and then make up your own mind. It was an easy choice for me. The CZ 452 topped by a Burris 4.5-14X32 AO Timberline scope is a prairie dog killing machine. Especially in .17 HMR. For coyotes, in .22 WMR. And I liked that Burris scope better than a Leupold 3-9X33 EFR that cost $180 more than the Burris. The ballistic reticle is mandatory for prairie dog shooting at long range.
The Burris 4.5-14X32 AO Timberline would also be an excellent scope for a .204 Ruger if you want a compact scope. Although now made in the Philippines, it is just as good as my earlier USA made Timberline. I found nothing else at the price that was real competition with AO, ballistic reticle, superior coatings, lifetime warranty, compact size, great factory service. Burris will repair and get your scope back to you in 2 weeks, because they did for me. Bushnell service has gone to the dogs from what I hear. You pay too much for Leupold, but at least the service is exceptional. No such thing as a scope that doesn't ever break and accidents WILL happen. They all have service departments because of that.
Cdog: I am not trying to supress savage Rifles I am simply refuting the myth that some folks try to propogate wherein ONLY savage Rifles are accurate!
NOTHING could be further from the real truth!
I brought on line just this month a wickedly accurate Ruger M-77 V/T in caliber 204 Ruger!
With VERY LITTLE load development (after barrel break-in) I got such splendid accuracy from a load using 32 grain Hornady V-Max's that i declared load testing over - on the Rifles 3rd trip to the range!
You might call this an example of "out of the box" accuracy!
On the 17th of January I made two groups (5 shot at 100 yards) measuring .378" and .347"!
For an average of .362"
With Varmint bullets this IS excellent accuracy from an all factory stock Ruger Rifle!
AND this Ruger Rifle is quality built, handsome, well balanced and obviously VERY accurate!
NO - savage Rifles DO NOT have the corner on accuracy!
And they ARE still clunky, awkward, cheaply made, unattractive and unbalanced Rifles!
You call my fact filled posts "foolish"!
I am calling YOU and YOUR contention that ONLY savage Rifles are accurate - FOOLISH, to the extreme!
If you think my posts "foolish" then disprove any of them OR any part of them!
I am calling you out there cdog!
Put up your evidence (like I have!) or shut up (but post your apology before you do!)!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy (the cdog "corrector"!)
I have to agree with you there Varmint guy. I own 3 rifles chambered in 204 ruger. I personally like the M77 Mark II target/varmint rifle the best. The heavy barrel and laminated wide fore arm on the stock is a +. Right out of the box wasn't bad. Over the last year working with it and different load combinations I have gotten to the point that I really enjoy it. It shoots a 1/8" group at 100 yd's using 32grain Hornady V-Max that I load with 26.5 gr of H4198 with an OAL of 2.335. Now this load is right fast like 4250 FPS. I'm working on 40gr V-Max loads at this time. I'm gonna try to keep them about 4,000 FPS so as not to heat the barrel up as much or as fast.
I purchased a Ruger 77 Target Varmint .204 when they first can out. It was one of the most accurate out of the box rifle I have owned. I got my first center fire rifle in 1952 and started reloading in 1953. Over the years I have owned Anschultz, Browning, Cooper, CZ, Howa, Kimber, Marlin, Sako, Savage, Parker Hale, Remington, Winchester, and Weatherby rifles . Most were bolt action . I have not tried out the new Savage varmint weight rifles but I may have to get one just to see if they are as accurate as some claim. But over the years I have learned how to glass bed actions, free float barrels , adjust triggers, and have had gunsmith lapp bolt locking luggs and recrown muzzles to get them to shoot under one inch 100 yard groups. Owning one rifle that is accurate does not mean that other rifles out of the boxof the same brand, model and cartridge will be as accurate.
Last edited by tuck2; 12-03-2010 at 05:52 AM.
Reason: Left out one brand
Sorry VG, but I'm not about to get into a pi&&ing match with you. There is a ton of proof out there that Remingtons quality control and their service in dealing with quality control issues are not what they used to be. I've seen it myself, and all you need to do is check the numerous boards on the web and do a search. It's available for all to see.
As for different gun brand names, it's no different then buying a vehicle. Everyone has their preferences. But to say "Savage" shouldn't even be considered, lets just say that there are thousands and thousands of loyal Savage fans that would beg to differ. I shoot numerous brands of guns and enjoy them all, including my remingtons. That's about all I have to say about it.
I'm on my third brick of primers (says something for quality) and my Savage in .204 with a Leupold 8.5 x 25 x40. The gun still shoots better than I do. Go to YOU TUBE : STEVEASKE to see 29 videos of .204 Savage and my Savage in .17 Mach2 in action. Both guns are work horses.