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When to turn

 
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  #8  
Old 02-12-2009, 07:19 PM
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Re: When to turn

"...K&M make an arbour press with a pressure indicator. I am convinced that these variations are due to inner none concentric case necks.."

Good thinking and you are quite right, so far as it goes. Unfortunately, other problems come into play too.

Consider that our brass is a mixture, not a compound. That means the alloy can - will - vary a little bit from one place to another in the same case!

Working the metal (necks) with firing and resizing also work hardens it, producing variations between supposedly identical cases!

Both of those factors makes it harder to qualify what is causing any neck seating tension/pressure variations we may measure with a scale.
-----------------------------------------------
ARRRRGGGH! This reloading stuff is much like a watermellon seed! It's awfully hard to get a firm grip on anything well enough that it can't squirt out!
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  #9  
Old 02-12-2009, 09:52 PM
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Re: When to turn

Saying you wouldn't neck turn brass just because your gun has a barrel with a factory neck is absolutely ridiculous. Some factory barrels shoot pretty darned good. You neck turn for uniform neck thickness (and therefore uniform neck tension on the bullet). This concept that taking a thousandth off will make a "sloppy neck chamber sloppier" is complete B.S. IMHO. A bullet has to leave the cartridge neck centered on the rifling and it will not do that if it is not released concentrically around the neck of the cartridge. Neck turning does not center the bullet on the rifling (good brass prep and a good barrel does). Neck turning DOES ensure all the brass surrounding the bullet behaves the same way as it expands regardless of tight neck, no turn neck, or factory neck.
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  #10  
Old 02-13-2009, 10:56 AM
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Re: When to turn

Those are good points.

I would add for the fella using buttons(even though he hates them), that you can have the advantages of both approaches.
-Pulling a button improves seating straightness, but causes increased total runout, because the necks are often pulled off center.
-pushing a bushing allows straight necks, but causes runout due to ill seating because neck thickness variance is forced inside the neck -prior to seating.

The answer is to use a bushing for outside sizing, followed by mandrel for inside sizing.
With this, the necks are left straight as your chamber left them, and your bullets seat straight because any variance in thickness has been forced outside the necks.
Sinclair mandrels work perfect for this.
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2009, 11:29 AM
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Re: When to turn

I have noticed pulling/pushing a button essentially doubles whatever runout I have. 0.001 goes to 0.002 etc
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2009, 10:03 PM
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Re: When to turn

"This concept that taking a thousandth off will make a "sloppy neck chamber sloppier" is complete B.S. IMHO. A bullet has to leave the cartridge neck centered on the rifling and it will not do that if it is not released concentrically around the neck of the cartridge. Neck turning does not center the bullet on the rifling (good brass prep and a good barrel does). Neck turning DOES ensure all the brass surrounding the bullet behaves the same way as it expands regardless of tight neck, no turn neck, or factory neck"

Note that I did NOT suggest that all factory barrels shoot poorly nor that all factory chambers are "bad", only that factory (SAAMI) chambers are NOT snugly fitted to factory cartridges, and that's a fact.

Given that there is, indeed, already a good bit of excess space in factory chambers (that's why we must at least neck size our cases to retain a new bullet isn't it?) is it not clear that any increase in that already "sloppy fit" is deteremental to cartridge fit? And does it not follow that a sloppy fit is detremental to accuracy? If you think that's not so, why would many people choose to order tight neck chambers in their custom rifles?

No one here but you suggested that cutting a thou off a neck is supposed to be excessive in any way. ??? Kindly note that I DID agree that "cleaning up" maybe 75% of an uneven neck's circumference can be a good idea, so did others. Our point is that going beyond a reasonable amount in neck turning is NOT helpful to accuracy. And a LOT of competent people agree with that. IMHO.

Those were my stated points. What's yours?

Last edited by boomtube; 02-13-2009 at 10:20 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-13-2009, 11:39 PM
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Re: When to turn

Boomtube got a question for you. You seem a lot more knowigible on this issue than me. Here is my questions and experience with neck turning. Back in the 80's- mid 90's i shot benchrest with a 6ppc .262 neck. Of course i had to turn necks not an option. Just started loading than also, i asked guys of the time like Sinclair, masker, Hammond, top gunsmiths about neck turning on every day cart. with factory chamber. They all said the theory about making a mess out of a mess. So for one, with my experience of only turning about a dozen cases i did not enjoy the process and never turned for anything but my ppc. I still on any rifle case go the mile of de-burring and squaring primer pocket, etc. My ? is how much is turning really helping, does it show up on paper? Then when i was turning i was using custom bullets such as Euber, Hollister, and watson's ( dont even know if there around anymore ) These bullets were next thing to perfect and i always had my cases set to these bullets coming out to .261. So if your shooting ever day factory rifle with every day bullets and switching back and forth after turning necks arent you going to have a different reading. Yes, i have damn good factory rifles that shoot well also and not to proud to use them. If you was refering to me because i posted earlier i was only saying what i was told years ago. Maybe now there is a better tool than i had then but it was a pita for me years ago.
Mike
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  #14  
Old 02-13-2009, 11:59 PM
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Re: When to turn

My comments were more toward mike33 where "turning necks on a factory chamber is making a mess out of a mess" and "only turn necks if you have a tight neck chamber".

Taking a thousandth off brass in a factory neck should only improve accuracy if done properly. Why? I already stated my case for even bullet release. Aditionally, turning those necks reduces bullet seating neck tension for those using factory seating dies. Without neck turning I was getting 4-6+ thousandths neck tension (d/t thick uneven brass) which definetely makes a huge a difference. This could be avoided by using bushing dies of the appropriate diameter (if you have them and know how to use them). Feeling that bullet seat with a nice even 2 thousandths is sweet. My perception is that any slight increase in "sloppiness" is likely countered/overcome by even neck tension etc.

Tight neck chambers can also have their problems with accuracy/fliers without enough clearance (adding to my thoughts on even neck release), but if brass is prepped properly, they will beat the pants off a no turn or factory neck. Poor bullet release in either case (uneven release/too tight a neck) would be like trying to run through an open door with someone grabbing your left arm as you went through!

I never suggested cutting off a thou is excessive??? Taking a thou off is perfect. Sorry if you misunderstood. Somebody who takes the time to take thou off probably just cares more about the brass he is producing and will ultimately get better results.
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