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Weird Issue with Run out

 
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  #1  
Old 01-09-2011, 03:29 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Malta NY
Posts: 711
Weird Issue with Run out

Weird because I am trying to understand what the data is telling me....

I started reloading again about 1-2 years ago. I had reloaded a little with the stepfather when I was younger but that had been a long while before and all knowledge had evaporated.

I initially read through many of the posts on LRH and a few other sites. and settled on the methodology below based on what I had learned. Went out and aquired the equipment and got busy....Mostly successful thus far.

I decided to go to the next level in quality and purchased a Sinclair Concentricity Guage. I had trusted that using the Collet Neck dies by Lee that I would be getting pretty good loads.

-now to recent issue- Upon setting up to load however I found my concentrity to be worse than I would have conceivably thought.

.

Steps I tend to use most of the time:

I use Lee Universal Decapper to deprime.

Clean Brass. Walnut Media in Tumbler with Flitz.

As Necessary, indicated by the LNL Guage, I use Full Length Forster Die to bump shoulder. (With deprime/neck sizing rod Removed)

I then run the brass through Lee Collet Die.

Trim if necessary. I sometimes go through and Collet Size again at this point.

Prime Brass using the Forster press as I like the consistent depth control and I am not usually in a rush. It actually goes pretty fast.

Load powder and then seat bullets using Forster Bench Rest Seater or Micrometer Seater depending on what I have for that caliber. <just an FYI..i personally like the Forster BR Seater Dies better than the Micrometer dies. I did pick up a Redding Micrometer to see if I like them better than Forster but I may just sell all of my micrometer dies and go with BR Seaters>

Double Check everything at every step of the way and go.....

I now have additional step and check

I recently purchased the Sinclair Concentricity guage and I finally decided to load some rounds in 30-06 for a new Browning BAR I acquired(long story).

When I checked concentricity I was way out of whack.

I was getting on average .007 run out or .014 total indicated run out.

I have checked everything and adjusted dies and press etc...

I get tightest or best run out using the Full length Sizing Die completely sizing necks and then utilizing Benchrest Seater I get runout of .0015 and total indicated of .003.

It appears as if my Collet Die is the cause but it is hard to believe because outside neck measurements are on average very good and match close to the Full Length brass prep.

But the end result is telling.

Has anyone experienced similar or have an idea I have not thought of that might be causing the run out?

I have not yet tried any other calibers yet. This was for 30-06. I initially thought that it might point to a need to anneal the brass but I had some new Lapua on the bench and was able to reproduce the same results.

It seems the more I learn about reloading the more equipment that I need and the more I know I dont kjnow
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  #2  
Old 01-09-2011, 04:03 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 314
Re: Weird Issue with Run out

Have you checked the brass prior to loading?
I would check your new brass, once fired (before you do anything to them, after sizing, and then after loading.
You need to determine where in your process the runout is being introduced. You can also check the bullets by themselves.

Where on the case and bullet do you place the probe?

Hope this helps a little, do one thing at a time and check before and after each step.

Good luck,
Ray
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  #3  
Old 01-09-2011, 04:31 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Malta NY
Posts: 711
Re: Weird Issue with Run out

Thanks Ray.

I have checked the Brass after each step as you mentioned. Also before loading.

The introduction of the issue seemed to be after the lee Collet Die step. But after this step, brass looks good, then upon seating everything looks off,

Perhaps it is the bullets but then I would have no clue why less Run Out using Full Length sizing on the brass.

I am thinking it may have something to due with the tension of the neck.....and it could be that the seater is teh issue and the full tension of full length sizing masks the root cause.
__________________
“When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such governments. …” Jefferson

We are very close to this point now.
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  #4  
Old 01-09-2011, 04:44 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Thunder Basin, WY
Posts: 1,788
Re: Weird Issue with Run out

.002 runout in a sized empty case will alot of times give .004 or double the runout by time we load it.

As Padd says, check during the process to determine the true culprit. I check mine for neck thickness variance and runout prior to resizeing, and can eliminate some runout that way.

Some runout can also be eliminated by resizing and seating in a two stage process (partially size/seat with one partial stroke, rotate case a 1/4 to 1/2 revolution and complete the size/seat with another full stroke.

You mentioned removing the expander ball on the de-capping rod. Sometimes it's better to use the expander, because if you don't the neck tension is too much to seat a bullet as straight as possible. Really forcing the bullet into the neck can cause alot of runout all by itself. Flat base bullets especially.

I am not familiar with the Lee Collet die you're using, I tried some lee dies for my 220 Swift about 20 years ago and wasn't at all impressed. I quit using them and never went back.

Disregard some of this, I see you were posting at the same time I was typing.
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2011, 04:52 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Malta NY
Posts: 711
Re: Weird Issue with Run out

Thanks for the comments Sbruce, Ray.

Just as an FYI, I am loading 150 gr Accubonds.
__________________
“When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such governments. …” Jefferson

We are very close to this point now.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-09-2011, 05:52 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,446
Re: Weird Issue with Run out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldon View Post
Weird because I am trying to understand what the data is telling me....

I started reloading again about 1-2 years ago. I had reloaded a little with the stepfather when I was younger but that had been a long while before and all knowledge had evaporated.

I initially read through many of the posts on LRH and a few other sites. and settled on the methodology below based on what I had learned. Went out and aquired the equipment and got busy....Mostly successful thus far.

I decided to go to the next level in quality and purchased a Sinclair Concentricity Guage. I had trusted that using the Collet Neck dies by Lee that I would be getting pretty good loads.

-now to recent issue- Upon setting up to load however I found my concentrity to be worse than I would have conceivably thought.

.

Steps I tend to use most of the time:

I use Lee Universal Decapper to deprime.

Clean Brass. Walnut Media in Tumbler with Flitz.

As Necessary, indicated by the LNL Guage, I use Full Length Forster Die to bump shoulder. (With deprime/neck sizing rod Removed)

I then run the brass through Lee Collet Die.

Trim if necessary. I sometimes go through and Collet Size again at this point.

Prime Brass using the Forster press as I like the consistent depth control and I am not usually in a rush. It actually goes pretty fast.

Load powder and then seat bullets using Forster Bench Rest Seater or Micrometer Seater depending on what I have for that caliber. <just an FYI..i personally like the Forster BR Seater Dies better than the Micrometer dies. I did pick up a Redding Micrometer to see if I like them better than Forster but I may just sell all of my micrometer dies and go with BR Seaters>

Double Check everything at every step of the way and go.....

I now have additional step and check

I recently purchased the Sinclair Concentricity guage and I finally decided to load some rounds in 30-06 for a new Browning BAR I acquired(long story).

When I checked concentricity I was way out of whack.

I was getting on average .007 run out or .014 total indicated run out.

I have checked everything and adjusted dies and press etc...

I get tightest or best run out using the Full length Sizing Die completely sizing necks and then utilizing Benchrest Seater I get runout of .0015 and total indicated of .003.

It appears as if my Collet Die is the cause but it is hard to believe because outside neck measurements are on average very good and match close to the Full Length brass prep.

But the end result is telling.

Has anyone experienced similar or have an idea I have not thought of that might be causing the run out?

I have not yet tried any other calibers yet. This was for 30-06. I initially thought that it might point to a need to anneal the brass but I had some new Lapua on the bench and was able to reproduce the same results.

It seems the more I learn about reloading the more equipment that I need and the more I know I dont kjnow
do two things:
1. sell the collet die and never regret it.
2. on your full length die, put an O ring under the top jam nut just for the stem. You want it to be able to follow the neck wall on the way out without be ridgidly in place

might try this:

1. buy a combination stone that is fairly smooth.
(a) stone the bolster plate of the press to remove any hickeys
(b) stone the top and bottom side of the jaws to make sure they are good and
flat
(c) adjust the 1/4-28 screw that opens the jaws so the the jaws are a little
loose at both ends of the stroke (this makes it easier for the case head to
float during the sizing stroke). I run mine just tight enough to hold onto the
case rim when I pull the case from the die
(d) Stone the base of the case to remove dings left by the extractor (not
much)
gary

Last edited by Trickymissfit; 01-09-2011 at 05:56 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2011, 06:06 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Malta NY
Posts: 711
Re: Weird Issue with Run out

Thanks for the direction Gary.

These sound like good ideas.

Regards, Aldon
__________________
“When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such governments. …” Jefferson

We are very close to this point now.
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