Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Reloading

Reloading Techniques For Reloading


Way in or way out ?

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-08-2006, 07:50 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fredericksburg VA
Posts: 4,137
Re: Way in or way out ?

I was wrong, I thought it was .5-1 MOA. After careful scrutiny I misquoted the 1 MOA part.

So let's see what is quoted on the OCW site.

"By "long range" rifle I mean one which can be depended on to hit a 5 gallon pail at 800 yards every time once you know what you're doing. " OCW Website

By the way that is at least 2 MOA.

"Toward that end, 1/2 MOA (minute of angle) accuracy is what I strive for." OCW Website.

Somehow "MINUTE OF 5 GALLON BUCKETS", now known as MOB, is not normally a term associated with extreme accuracy.

Using your NASCAR analogy, you are driving a Yugo at Daytona and thinking your going to win, but somehow have never entered a race, but want to tell everyone how to win!!

Go to www.long-range.com/forums where the National Fclass and Palma teams hang out. Submit a post telling them how they are all screwed up for not using OCW and you can fix their poor shooting guns. By the way, most of them are shooting 308s which by your website you say you do not even own. When they start preaching it, then I will believe. They like to use the dirty nasty chronos in load development too so you have your work cut out for you. Until then just unproven internet theory, no matter how many flies someone shoots.

Besides IF that can gun and load can repeat that performance (and is not the blind hog finding an acorn) then bring it to any match (BR, Groundhog, Egg Shoots etc) and clean up.

As for explaining why some guns and some bullets shoot better in the lands vs at mag OAL, cannot. Nor do I have to as it does not make it untrue, you cannot explain why they don't either. The match results speak for themselves.

Many of these BR guys put more rounds downrange in one year than you have ever pulled the trigger on. The short range buys shoot groups in the ZEROs and ONES and not MOB. 1K BR matches are won normally with groups under match conditions(normally windy) in the 3-4" range for LG (5 shots) and 4-5" for HG(10 shots).

Bullets are tested all up and down from .040 in the lands to .040 off. We load to where it shoots best, but 1000s of bullets downrange, certain trends start to develop that even Ray Charles can see but they cannot quote engineering theory and they do not have a website for MOB accuracy standards.

If anyone wants a MOB gun, then OCW with its grossly uninformed reloading internet theory is the place to go.

Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 08:12 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Posts: 8,090
Re: Way in or way out ?

Hear what your saying.

Another group I see emerging are those that shoot off of bipods and beanie bags pretty much exclusively, whether prone, bench or a platform in the bed of the pickup truck. These guys may be close to group 2 with rifles from 4th, 5th and 6th groups.

I find it intreging that they can put "steel on target" under so many different shooting conditions. I kind of grew into mind set that accurate shooting had to be done from a concrete bench, piano stool, pedestal front rest and an ear'd sand bag filled with the very best filler. Not So!

I was out with some buffalo gun shooters awhile back and was really impressed with their shooting. 500 meters, ram targets, cross sticks out on the barrel, heavy variable cross wind. The one ol' boy I observed shot a less than MOA group when all 5 rams were looked at. That would out shoot most on this forum and that's with a rifle w/a hammer, blackpowder cartridge and cast lead bullets and peep sights. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I may be the slowest guy on the mountain . . . . but . . . . I'm on the mountain!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 09:43 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
Re: Way in or way out ?

BH, you and others should be proud to shoot consistent "MOB" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] in the real world. By "real world" I mean prone over a pack or off a bi-pod. No wind flags, no bench, no mitts or matts... 2 MOA isn't a bad average across all conditions. I cannot currently do it, and in all liklihood neither can you.

My website is geared toward helping the average shooter become better able to handload for the best possibe accuracy across a variety of conditions. OCW will do that better than conventional methods because the emphasis is on pressure tolerant load recipes--the kind you don't have to monkey with because the weather changes.

You have extolled the virtues of the traditional ladder test--so I remain amazed that you still don't understand OCW and the inherent advantages thereof. Most people get it right away... Perhaps the reason you keep misunderstanding me is related to your demonstrated tendency to skim read and miss important points--and jump to conclusions as to what the writer is saying.

Classical example above... you thought I was trying to assert that BR shooters get high runout and don't even realize it. I of course did not say that, but rather was referring to practical shooters and hunters--which is the default discipline of this website--wouldn't it be? Most guys who peruse these pages aren't BR types. Accuracy goals and necessary equipment for long range practical shooting aren't compatible or comparable with the benchrest equipment and discipline.

I am glad that you at least admitted that you don't know the "whys" behind the accuracy changes which occur when seating depth is altered. You correctly point out that one doesn't need to know why; one need only know that the principle is true. Again, that is the race driver not knowing why this cam duration works better--only that it does.

For my part, I will continue to study the "whys," rather than to simply say "That's just the way it is." [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 12:15 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: Way in or way out ?

BountyHunter, I like your "MOB" rifle description. It's much like the one heard back in the early 1970's when the USNRA changed their 1000-yard highpower target's high scoring ring down to 20 inches from 36 inches. It had been 36 inches since about 1900 when rifles needed to keep all their shots in it were occasionally called "wash-tub rifles." After the high scoring ring was reduced to 20 inches one might hear rifles needed to keep all the shots in it called "bushel-basket rifles." I doubt there's much difference in accuracy between a bushel-basket or MOG rifle.

Regarding how accurate the most skilled rifleman can be with their first shot at this 1000 yard target, here's what I've observed over the last four decades using both scope or aperture sights. Doesn't matter what cartridge or rifle is used, after estimating and making all the corrections for conditions the very best of them will put their first shot inide the 10-inch diameter X-ring no more than 10 to 15 percent of the time. About 30 to 40 percent of the time their first show will go inside the 20-inch 10-ring. The second shot is typically closer to center. Watching and shooting 1K-yard benchrest matches the first shot miss distance is about the same.

There are some instances where quite a bit of bullet jump didn't cause a problem. A top barrel maker was using 220-gr. Sierra HPMK's seated 1/4th inch off the lands in a 30 caliber magagnum and put over 20 consecutive shots of 'em into about 5 to 6 inches at 1000 yards shooting prone with a scope; that's about as good as 1K-yd. BR group aggregates get.

It's been my experience that ammo with case necks and seated bullets very, very straight, one can get excellent accuracy with quite a bit of bullet jump.

The bottom line for best accuracy seems to be: "Keep all the variables as close to zero as possible." Learning what those variables are and how to correct the big ones is something else.
Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 12:16 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: west of Little Rock ,Ark.
Posts: 1,271
Re: Way in or way out ?

Hey Roy,

Went away to my loading bench only to return and find ........... ?

The distance is 100 yds. The problem may well be that I dont know how to measure the groups [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [image][/image] I have shot several 3 shot groups like this one with my 243 AI. Outside at about 800 ft. elevation and no wind . The reason for only 3 shot groups is that I didn't trust myself to not " fall apart " with more shots [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Btw that 700 yd group was with my 300 winnie , my .243 went into 2.5 inches at 700( 3 shots ) I'm beginning to think I should not post any more groups [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

As you said sometimes it all comes together . Some days I can't get in the groove and groups are bigger .

Funny thing about the reason I'm seated at 40 thou off on this load. I had a defective screw thread on my sinclair seating depth checker that would seem to be tight but time revealed that it was stopping short of a solid grip on the shaft and of course this allowed the dimension to change as you read the dial caliper.

I wish our coyotes would stop like the one you saw the other day . I've fired at them at 700 plus yds only to watch them start walking /trotting just as the rifle fired [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Now if you all will excuse me I have to go take my zanax [image][/image]
Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 05:48 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fredericksburg VA
Posts: 4,137
Re: Way in or way out ?

Green 788

I sure do not get where you think using a ladder and a chrono does not allow you to find a pressure insensitive load because it most certainly will and with extreme accuracy and not MOB. It is super easy to spot the nodes, record the fps nodes and see when the MV and pressure normally jump.

As you do not believe in using a chrono with OCW you might find one node but miss one to two more and not necessarily the top node if fps is your goal.

If I want to build an accuracy load for a mag gun, I simply seat at max oal, shoot the ladder and tweak the load and finally seating depth backwards.

I will let you in on a little secret that us poor uninformed LR BR guys know about seating out in the lands. If we seat out into the lands we reduce pressue with a given powder charge vs seated to a mag OAL. That has been proven time and time again with pressure strain guages and Oehler 43s. Now why would we want to seat at mag oal if we did not have to, and increase pressure. Lot more subtleties to this game than you have mastered and learned yet, but keep on trying.

As far as me being able to hit one shot what I am aiming at, do not bet too much money on that. I have spent a lot of time on unknown distance ranges and targets with 24 years in Special Forces, shooting with the Army Markmanship unit for a short time and I just happen to have a 308 with 16x IOR w/MP8 that gets a work out occasionally. Will readily admit not as good as I used to be consistently especially on the ranging ( I cheat and use the Leica 1200 now), but I am as good as I once was more than occasionally.

But anyway sure is fun talking about it. Get you a 308 and try it.

Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2006, 06:07 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: west of Little Rock ,Ark.
Posts: 1,271
Re: Way in or way out ?

" Jimm, drop me a PM..".

Green I think the pm feature is turned of but my email addy is in my bio, you should put yours there as well.

Jim B.
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Current Poll
Do you archery hunt for elk?
YES - 32.18%
65 Votes
NO - 51.98%
105 Votes
Not yet, but I plan to. - 15.84%
32 Votes
Total Votes: 202
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:30 PM.

Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC