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Way in or way out ?

 
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  #1  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:06 PM
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Way in or way out ?

I have had /have loads that will shoot in the ones and twos at 100 yds. that are being jumped 40 to 50 thou.

Anyone else have some like that ? I have heard from folks in the br circles that there can be a way in and or a way out seating depth for each load that ios accurate in a particular gun.

undergoing severe hunting withdrawal pains at this time , please help [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Jim B.
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:54 AM
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Re: Way in or way out ?

http://gofoxpro.com/main.htm [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2006, 08:13 AM
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Re: Way in or way out ?

Jimm,

It does seem that just about any load recipe will have various seating depths which will allow the groups to form well.

Often, benchrest shooters really don't know the "whys" behind what they do. Like a top level Nascar driver, he's great at what he does, but he really doesn't know why this particular cam works better on this particular track. He only knows that it does. This is why we often get a mish-mash of blather from BR circles with regard to seating close to the lands.

When I hear that a particular bullet "likes" a certain amount of jump to the lands, I am skeptical. In nearly every situation, you can make that bullet shoot well at magazine length. Folks who believe that bullet X needs a .020" jump to the lands will begin with that seating depth and adjust the powder charge until they get tiny groups. They conclude that indeed this bullet does "like" a .020" jump.

Barnes and perhaps some other makers have found that some of their bullets do better when loaded close to the lands. Again, they tell you this without telling you why. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Likely, the subject bullets are difficult to seat straight, and they end up with higher than average runout (perhaps the ogives are not compatible with typical seater die buttons). The closer seating to the lands may allow the bullet to be deflected to center as it engages the lands, rather than smashing into the lands and engraving off axis--as might happen with a deeper seat.

I think if you seat the bullet straight, and your case neck and chamber are concentric, you can seat deeper and get great accuracy.

Changing the seating depth changes the barrel time. Bullets seated at different depths will be released on various points on the vibration pattern at the muzzle.



As you can see from this diagram, there are likely two different accuracy nodes on a barrel's vibration whip. Altering the seating depth will move the bullet's release to different points on this (typical) figure 8 pattern. As you seat deeper and deeper, or shallower and shallower, you'll move the bullet around on this pattern. Ideally, you will want the bullet to release as close to the narrow loop's endpoint as possible. Here the muzzle is slowing, almost to a stop, before it changes direction. Bullets with muzzle velocities within about 25 fps of ES can still be released in virtually the same point in space--a good thing.

If you're releasing your bullets on a "straightaway" in the figure 8, they may string on the target--even if the ES looks great on the chronograph. This is why it is always best to let the target over-rule the chronograph in situations where they don't agree. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

The vibration whip is not to be confused with the main barrel shock wave, as identified by engineer Chris Long. Chris Long's pages can be linked by going to my website and scrolling to the bottom of page one. That's a different thing entirely, and OCW load development should be used to identify the "coarse tune" powder charge, and then seating depth adjustments should be used to make the final tweaks to the load. Most guys--even vaunted BR guys--get this backwards. They begin with a fixed seating depth (yeah, because so and so said this bullet "likes" this seating depth [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ) and they manipulate the powder charge to make that seating depth work. This is much like beginning with a particular ignition time setting on a racing engine, and then changing pistons until you get the timing to work. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

So yes, there are indeed different points of seating depth that will work just fine--for the reasons mentioned above...

Dan
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  #4  
Old 02-07-2006, 05:48 PM
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Re: Way in or way out ?

Mr. Ballistic,

You are a menace [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] to good marital relations that is . [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Yes , varmint season is still in here , and yes , I want one of them new Foxpros with speakers on each end and a plug in for the remote decoy. But no ! its not happening this winter [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] How far will the remotes work on those rigs . A very good friend of mine has one but he won't let me get more than a hundred away from it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Guess hes afraid the varmints will carry it off.

I hope to have mine by this time next year and thanks for the direction ,

Jim B.
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:17 PM
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Re: Way in or way out ?

Green 788,

Thanks for the reply. I realize that you have experience with benchrest folks that lead you to make the observations you have shared with me .I reckon complacency is not a commodity that is'nt universal. That is to say, it exists in all disciplines .

I think the think the main reason I posted the thread was boredom [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] However , I did want to poiunt out that I never hear of someone sharing a load that is killer in their rig that is also noted as being seated "way in " .

I'm sure you know people like Henry Childs that are grand old men in the paper shooting disciplines that are very knowledgeable and do not settle for a "formula " but press on to understand and quantify the forces at work . I will never reach any place close to their understanding of the forces at work . Especially as related to current components / equipment and ther performance at the firing line . That doesn't stop me from asking and assimilating to the best of my ability . Indeed , that is probably a good thing because that is exactly why I will not be a " burnout " . It is my observation that that happens more often at the top of the game .

I am an avid hunter but I think that paper punching will serve me well in that ar3ea and besides ! I like to pull the trigger and send one downrange......then two, then ....well you get it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, What do you do and where do you live ? I want to know so I can try to plan a trip past your place while going to hunt something somewhere else so i can hunt something in your area that you will tell me where to go and do it and then I will then [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Sorry , my wife just came in and said " honey you're doing it again " ( how does she know ? )

p.s. green 788 , your rem 788 is green ? hence the moniker ? Jim B.
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2006, 06:33 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Black Hills,South Dakota
Posts: 661
Re: Way in or way out ?

I do my best,even my wife tells me that. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
The remote on the foxpro I have (532) is advertised to 700 yds under ideal conditions.I cant imagine why anyone would ever want that kind of range,but thats what foxpro claims.The farthest Ive ever set mine out was just under a 100 yds and worked great.Those dogs just dont stand still for very long though.I'll probably go out this weekend and call since weve had cooler temps and just got some snow.
But for tonight I have to sneak a new model 7 in the house and scheme on the checkbook to get a deposit for an Alpine before they go off sale! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2006, 08:22 PM
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Re: Way in or way out ?

OK, Green 788

Talk about a mish mash of blather, that is the pot calling the kettle black.

If you think BR shooters start into the lands with some types of bullets because they cannot seat them straight, you have been smoking some really good stuff. There is no way to put it other than to say that is an absolutely asinine statement.

Guess who originally learned about tweaking your seating die nose to fit the bullet? Guess who started sorting bullets to ogive, guess who started metplat trimming, and other match proven techniques.

A BR shooter normally start into the lands because we have only one way to go and that is out, rather than jump in and out of any other way as you prescribe on your site. Plus we are not limited to a mag OAL. BR shooters are extremely methodical in what they do and why and it is match proven vs speculation on an unproven theory.

As for the gobbledy goop statement about BR shooters adjusting powder charge to make a certain seating depth work, YOU have it backwards and are totally wrong again. I cannot even imagine where you dreamed up such a statement!! We never use a fixed seating depth and adjust powder only. Basic BR techniques call for adjusting the seating depth last normally.

You are deriding match proven techniques that you obviously know nothing about and are totally misinformed in almost every aspect based on the comments you made. Plus even if it was, it sure as heck works and is proven time and time again on the range.

You do not have a clue about extreme accuracy and what it REALLY takes to get there if you believe that garbage you just printed. Oh sure, as you say "You can make a gun shoot well off the lands" which is taking mag gun and getting 1/2-1 MOA, which is the repeated OCW standard. Well that is not extreme accuracy by any stretch of the imagination. That and a $1 will get you a cup of coffee at a match and a quick trip back to the car to go home.

Leave extreme accuracy techniques to people who do it vs deriding and theorizing.

BH
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