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Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

 
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  #57  
Old 10-22-2013, 12:44 PM
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Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

Brent, your die may be at the right place now. Especially if the rounds chamber easily and shoot accurate.
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  #58  
Old 10-22-2013, 06:11 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9
Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

FYI, problem solved....

I stopped at Sportsman's warehouse and picked up a few extra shell holders to send to SidecarFlip to have him surface grind a few thousandths off as he had offered.
For shits and grins I picked up a couple Hornady. Been using RCBS.

I grabbed a case that I checked and made sure did not chamber in the rifle. Then measured it. .126". Sized it with the RCBS shell holder, Bumped the shoulder back to .120" Checked in rifle again, still did not fit as I had suspected. The problem that started this whole thread. I need to be .119" or less. My fired cases are measuring about .119"-.1195"

Put the Hornady shell holder in and sized it again. Checked it in the rifle and sure as **** it fit!! Measured it and the shoulder was bumped back to .115"

So, a simple shell holder change has solved all my headaches from the past two weeks. Did not change the die adjustments. Just the shell holder. Press seemed to cam over with the same resistance as before. The Hornady shell holder must just be .005" shallower. Don't care what the difference is just that's it fixed.

I would like to thank all you guys for chiming in with suggestions and recommendations.

SidecarFlip, Thanks for offering to surface grind my shell holders. I need to follow up with some different brass to verify that everything is good. So I may call upon you in the future. Thanks again.

Thanks everybody
BGG
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  #59  
Old 10-22-2013, 10:12 PM
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Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentM View Post
I hear ya. I moved the die down to the point the press was just barely able to cam over. I don't think I can get it any tighter than that. The cases shoulder moved from 1.917 to 1.908. If I loosened the die the measurement would grow accordingly from 1.908 to 1.910 etc until no bump was achieved. Perhaps a bit more playing is in order. I will fire a new case and start from there to see what the scoop is.

6,5x284 Norma - Norma
Read posts 3,5,9,11 and 13.

Tightening the die down on the shellholder isn't always the pancea. There are other ways of bumping the shoulder back without resorting to a bump die. Much less stressful on your press and your die.....

Keep in mind that when you 'cam over' as it's called, you stress the press components and the die base.....

Me being a pistol loader, I'm adverse to the tighten and cam over method anyway. Thats death to the die with a carbide insert pistol die.
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  #60  
Old 10-22-2013, 10:43 PM
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Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

As per Redding Tech advice. There are Presses designed for the cam over method. For example the Redding T-7 I use and love. The turret head is mounted with a very very slight cant. As you cam over against the die body the turret head comes to rest in the rear against a machined , true surface bringing the turret and die in true alignment with the ram and shell holder. I have never actually measured this movement to see what it is but I can tell you it isn't much. This method was a dream come true for me in the quest to eliminate unwanted run out, seat bullets to the same depth to the thousands, and get consistent shoulder placement each time no matter how fast or slow the ram is raised, or the amount of pressure applied to the ram handle.

I set the neck and seating die to a light cam over. Just enough to feel it. I set the body dies up a little tighter on the cam over as they need just a little more to insure the shell holder does contact the die under the load of sizing and shoulder set back. If you set it to light without a case, it may not come to zero clearance while doing the sizing work with a case installed.

Another great benefit of this method is as long as you have a cam over, and zero clearance between the shell holder and die, you will always be doing the same amount of work as far as depth of the case insertion into the die. So guessing if the die is set to low or to high becomes eliminated. It will always be the same.

This said you do have to use a little common sense about the cam over pressure. Use no more than is needed to keep the contact. If you set it up for gorilla force you could probably screw something up.

With 1000's of long range precision rifle rounds loaded this way, I feel I have never produced better, more accurate or consistent ammo.

Jeff
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  #61  
Old 10-22-2013, 10:52 PM
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Posts: 40
Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

How are you measuring shoulder bump? I'm having the same problem with stiff bolt after firing with no other signs of pressure.
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  #62  
Old 10-22-2013, 11:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff View Post
FYI, problem solved....

I stopped at Sportsman's warehouse and picked up a few extra shell holders to send to SidecarFlip to have him surface grind a few thousandths off as he had offered.
For shits and grins I picked up a couple Hornady. Been using RCBS.

I grabbed a case that I checked and made sure did not chamber in the rifle. Then measured it. .126". Sized it with the RCBS shell holder, Bumped the shoulder back to .120" Checked in rifle again, still did not fit as I had suspected. The problem that started this whole thread. I need to be .119" or less. My fired cases are measuring about .119"-.1195"

Put the Hornady shell holder in and sized it again. Checked it in the rifle and sure as **** it fit!! Measured it and the shoulder was bumped back to .115"

So, a simple shell holder change has solved all my headaches from the past two weeks. Did not change the die adjustments. Just the shell holder. Press seemed to cam over with the same resistance as before. The Hornady shell holder must just be .005" shallower. Don't care what the difference is just that's it fixed.

I would like to thank all you guys for chiming in with suggestions and recommendations.

SidecarFlip, Thanks for offering to surface grind my shell holders. I need to follow up with some different brass to verify that everything is good. So I may call upon you in the future. Thanks again.

Thanks everybody
BGG
No problem. I have the machine tools and it's not a time intensive thing. Shell holder do vary by manufacturer as far as overall height goes and taper relief on the underside as well. I needed an RCBS shellholder for my hand primer but didn't have one available so I used a Lee but had to modify the bottom relief to get it to fit the hand primer (as an example). The milled case head relief on the top side is standard across most shellholders but the overall dimensions aren't. For a glaring example, compare a Redding shellholder to an RCBS.

Not to sell anything (I don't play that crap on here and I respect Len's rules of engagement) but my e-mail address is: sales@flipmeisters.com you can message me there if you do want them ground.

Jeff..

If you read the post previous to my post, the poster stated he applied excessive cam over. That's what I was referring to. Nothing more. Once you achieve a 'felt' cam over on any press, exceeding that gains nothing and stresses the components.

In other words, no need to 'reef' on it.
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  #63  
Old 10-22-2013, 11:11 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Meridian, Idaho
Posts: 1,271
Re: Shoulder bump problem? Not far enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
As per Redding Tech advice. There are Presses designed for the cam over method. For example the Redding T-7 I use and love. The turret head is mounted with a very very slight cant. As you cam over against the die body the turret head comes to rest in the rear against a machined , true surface bringing the turret and die in true alignment with the ram and shell holder. I have never actually measured this movement to see what it is but I can tell you it isn't much. This method was a dream come true for me in the quest to eliminate unwanted run out, seat bullets to the same depth to the thousands, and get consistent shoulder placement each time no matter how fast or slow the ram is raised, or the amount of pressure applied to the ram handle.

I set the neck and seating die to a light cam over. Just enough to feel it. I set the body dies up a little tighter on the cam over as they need just a little more to insure the shell holder does contact the die under the load of sizing and shoulder set back. If you set it to light without a case, it may not come to zero clearance while doing the sizing work with a case installed.

Another great benefit of this method is as long as you have a cam over, and zero clearance between the shell holder and die, you will always be doing the same amount of work as far as depth of the case insertion into the die. So guessing if the die is set to low or to high becomes eliminated. It will always be the same.

This said you do have to use a little common sense about the cam over pressure. Use no more than is needed to keep the contact. If you set it up for gorilla force you could probably screw something up.

With 1000's of long range precision rifle rounds loaded this way, I feel I have never produced better, more accurate or consistent ammo.

Jeff
This is the method I used tonight actually. I culled out some bad cases and the rest cycled superbly. I will use these for testing and start over with new brass and be more careful and precise in the future.
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