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Runout increasing when seating

 
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  #1  
Old 06-10-2006, 08:34 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mouth of Hobble Crk Canyon, Utah
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Runout increasing when seating

I've taken the advice of members of this board, especially Kirby Allen's, and have gotten my runout down to .001" on the necks of my FL sized 30-06 brass. It's the runout after seating which has got me stumped. Some facts to follow:

-Winchester brand 30-06 brass, fired 4-5 times.
-Primers punched out via a seperate Lyman Universal decapping die.
-Sized with Forster BR dies so shoulder is not set back but just touched. Cleaned up the sizing die very well to make sure accumulated crud was not introducing variances. Sized the case without the expander button and checked runout which equalled only .0005". Did this to see if the expander button did/did not introduce runout. Once I sized the cases with the expander button set as Kirby Allen suggested, I was getting a max of .001" runout.
-Concentricity device is the Sinclair.

-I've really focused on cleaning up the necks with 000 steel wool inside and out.
-Neck thickness varies from .001" to .0035" thick. This may be the varible I'm lookig for!
-Device I use to measure thickness is the Sinclair MIC-4 thickness gage.
-Neck length is trimmed to 2.484" via the Forster trimmer and chamfered with the Lyman VLD tool.
-I'm using a Forster Ultra seater die. Nothing unusual about how I have this set.
-OAL is about 3.556", or about 1/2 the neck has bullet bearing surface in it.

Any suggestions on what I could do to get rid of the runout I'm getting at the seating station which runs upto .005"? I'm getting stuff which runs as low as .0015".
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  #2  
Old 06-10-2006, 08:57 AM
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Re: Runout increasing when seating

GSSP,

How are you setting up your seating die, from threading it into the press to seating bullets, let us know your set up steps. We can go from there.

Generally, if your getting neck run outs in the 1 thou range or less and using a seater like you are, your bullet run outs should be well under 2 thou consistantly and generally no more then 1 thou.

Let us know. you may have a bad seater or there maybe something in your seating die set up that is causing issues.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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  #3  
Old 06-10-2006, 09:41 AM
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Re: Runout increasing when seating

Totally agree with kirby, with the FB die, you should be seeing much less runout than you are. I suspect you are seeing case neck thickness variations manafest as runout. That one of the problems of outside sizing brass that hasn't been neck turned. The outside gets round, and the inside gets egg shaped to whatever degree your neck walls vary in thickness. After the bullet gets seated, these variations get pushed back to the outside of the case where your gauge sees them as runout. Ill bet youll nottice a correlation between measured TIR after seating, and neck thickness variations if you check some cases that have very consistantly thick necks to some that have .003" or more variation.
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  #4  
Old 06-10-2006, 01:08 PM
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Location: El Reno,Ok.
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Re: Runout increasing when seating

Too bad there wasn't a way to "iron" out the variances after resizing. I've done this a few times by running an expanding mandrel through the neck after resizing. The problem this creates is a lack of neck tension. Might just turn the necks, it's not too hard and you'll only have to do it one time. (unless a doughnut pops up - then that's easily cleaned up)

As for the runout inhereted when seating, I've gone to a hand die which has elimitated this problem. The hand die is worth the money for ease of set up and they stay set up even when switching to a different caliber unlike a standard press.
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  #5  
Old 06-10-2006, 05:38 PM
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Re: Runout increasing when seating

how do you mean that you can "iron out the variances" with a mandrel after resizing? perhaps you mean from a bushing die with no expander? if thats all you want to acomplish, just turn the mandrel down to the diameter approprate for the bullet youre using. Piece of cake. The neck thickness variation will still be there however. just on the outside instead of the inside.
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  #6  
Old 06-10-2006, 09:20 PM
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Re: Runout increasing when seating

Kirby,

For purposes of load development at the range, I use the little Lee Press with the Forster Ultra seater "locked" in so my OAL does not change. I believe I'm using a Lee shell holder. It's has a "1" on it and is knurled abound the circumfrence.

I simply followed Forsters instructions on setting up the die. I screwed the die down until it touched the shell holder. I kept screwing it down, compressing the spring loaded floating/sliding chamber upwards about 1/2 it's exposed length. I then tightened the lock ring down and locked it in via the lock screw. I then loosened the lock nut on top of the die and adjusted the bullet seating stem until a dummy round was near the depth I wanted it. From their I locked the lock nut down and did any final adjustments via the Micro Body.

As a test, I tore the seater die apart, cleaned it and reassemble it. I found a little reside of ? in side and it had a small ring of what looked like rust just inside the entrance. I reseated 3 rounds. Two improved by .002" from .005" to .003" and one stayed the same .0035". Was this a statistical improvement? I think not. As a side note, while the die was apart, I tried 180 BT's, 180 IB's, 200 Speer's and Hornady 125 Sp in the seater stem and did not notice anything askew such as large amounts of bullet wiggle.

I have a Forster trimmer I bought over 20 years ago and have the Outside Neck turner tool. I know I have stuff necessary for .224 diameter. I'll need to see if I have .308 cal stuff or if I'll need to order it; if we feel I need to turn necks!

As a control test, I have 100 virgin Lapua brass which I have only run through the FL size die and trued up the primer pockets. Haven't had a chance to check any concentricity or neck wall thickness yet.

Keep on Patterning

Big Al
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  #7  
Old 06-10-2006, 10:29 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Reno,Ok.
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Re: Runout increasing when seating

[ QUOTE ]
how do you mean that you can "iron out the variances" with a mandrel after resizing? perhaps you mean from a bushing die with no expander? if thats all you want to acomplish, just turn the mandrel down to the diameter approprate for the bullet youre using. Piece of cake. The neck thickness variation will still be there however. just on the outside instead of the inside

[/ QUOTE ] Bullet run out will not be effected if the highs and lows are on the outside of the neck.
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