Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Reloading

Reloading Techniques For Reloading


Reply

Run-out help needed

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #22  
Old 12-26-2012, 01:29 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SD
Posts: 428
Re: Run-out help needed

If you are not lubing the necks of the case before re-sizing it will cause runout.

Clean and polish the die and stem, center the stem in the die.

Clean and chamfer the case mouths.

Lube the case necks on the inside with a little resizing wax(or mica-graphite-moly powder) lube the outside of the case consistently. I use a Q-tip with resizing wax on it to lube necks.

Every case should feel exactly the same when resized and it should not take much force to pull the case out of the die over the stem.

Check the once fires to resized case shoulder length to see how far it has been pushed back. If the shoulder has been pushed back too far set the die to only slightly push the shoulder back.

I use a pistol case and a caliper to check this...you really only need to know if the shoulder is back a couple thousandths from a fired case(one set of dies I have pushed the shoulder back .025"). Redding makes shellholders that are made in increments of +.002" each to adjust the amount the shoulder is pushed back.

If you do all the above you should start seeing runouts in the .001" range and the bad ones might be .005" if you screwed something up.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NC, oceanfront
Posts: 3,364
Re: Run-out help needed

Two reasons you can't get below 3thou in TIR Bart:
-You haven't culled out cases with thickness variance
-You over-size


Also, there is a difference between separate or combined body die/partial neck sizing, and actual FL sizing. They're not the same.
'Full length bushing dies' ARE NOT FL dies. They do not full length size.

Bullet Bumper's post pretty well described a few potential approaches to reducing runout.
Missed, maybe I missed, is that there are three main causes of runout:
-Thickness variance
-Sizing
-Poor cartridge design

A 30-06 brings all three to front & center.
It's length to width to cal is all wrong. It has high body angle and low shoulder angles.
This causes an immediate need for greater sizing than better designed cartridges ever need.
Any thickness variance bows a 30-06 more than better designed cartridges.
It is ballistically inefficient and much of the unburned powder merely adds to bullet mass, increasing recoil and muzzle pressures.
When you find no gain in straighter, better chambering fit 30-06 cases, it's because you've already reached the cartridge's potential(it's not a bench rest cartridge).
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-26-2012, 06:05 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 738
Re: Run-out help needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
Two reasons you can't get below 3thou in TIR Bart:
-You haven't culled out cases with thickness variance
-You over-size


Also, there is a difference between separate or combined body die/partial neck sizing, and actual FL sizing. They're not the same.
'Full length bushing dies' ARE NOT FL dies. They do not full length size.

Bullet Bumper's post pretty well described a few potential approaches to reducing runout.
Missed, maybe I missed, is that there are three main causes of runout:
-Thickness variance
-Sizing
-Poor cartridge design

A 30-06 brings all three to front & center.
It's length to width to cal is all wrong. It has high body angle and low shoulder angles.
This causes an immediate need for greater sizing than better designed cartridges ever need.
Any thickness variance bows a 30-06 more than better designed cartridges.
It is ballistically inefficient and much of the unburned powder merely adds to bullet mass, increasing recoil and muzzle pressures.
When you find no gain in straighter, better chambering fit 30-06 cases, it's because you've already reached the cartridge's potential(it's not a bench rest cartridge).
I agree . Thickness variation is a big issue and that's why I use skim neck turning and the long neck is perfect for partial length neck sizing .
The 30-06 will never be a modern BR cartridge but with the right approach it can shoot very well .
As Bart B points out minimum sizing is also a good idea to preserve case fit and reduce the tendency to distort the case neck centre with older dies.
This is why I use Lee collet die , with shortening washer and Redding body die.
The less you have to size each time the better.
However with hunting rounds fed through magazines we also have to have adequate neck tensions .
I would not say that the 30-06 is ballisticly inefficient it does a great job with the powder it consumes compared to bigger volume magnums . So in that direction it is effecient . Not really fair to either , to compare a 30-06 and a 6 mm PPC .
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-26-2012, 07:23 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mid-Michigan
Posts: 75
Re: Run-out help needed

I noticed that the seating plug appears to be slightly off center when I looked inside with a flash light. I would imagine that doesn't help the situation. I took it apart and cleaned it. I Have it so it appears centered but I think that each time the stem is screwed in or out it will return to off center. Putting a mark on the case with a sharpie marker prior to seating the bullet would probably help diagnose the problem if I'm seeing the run-out high spot in the same location.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-26-2012, 07:29 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 738
Re: Run-out help needed

You will never load precision ammo consistantly with crook dies .
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-26-2012, 07:35 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: Run-out help needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
Two reasons you can't get below 3thou in TIR Bart:
-You haven't culled out cases with thickness variance
-You over-size
MIke, what makes you think I don't cull cases for some thickness variance? I measure my bullet runout; you don't, so you're a bit off base telling me I cannot get something I see myself doing. I do sort for neck wall thickness, but even if it's as much as 1.5 thousandths, I still get bullet runout from 0 to 3 thousandths TIR quite often. And I've never seen any need to get runout below 2 to 3 thousandths anyway and still get 1/2 to 3/4 MOA accuracy at the worst for longer ranges.

Quote:
Also, there is a difference between separate or combined body die/partial neck sizing, and actual FL sizing. They're not the same. 'Full length bushing dies' ARE NOT FL dies. They do not full length size.
Name those makes and models of 'Full length bushing dies' that are not full length sizing dies and don't size body diameters down as well as set shoulders back and size necks without expander balls. Then please explain why, if they don't size bodies down, set shoulders back and size necks down without balls, are they called "full length" ones
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-26-2012, 09:06 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NC, oceanfront
Posts: 3,364
Re: Run-out help needed

FL dies size the entire length of necks(which is the very worst thing anyone could do).
Bushing dies do not.
More often than otherwise, actual off the shelf FL dies also way oversize the bodies.
What is merchandised as FL bushing dies are actually body-bushing dies.
Undersizing/oversizing here is a matter of chamber to die to load match.
I just think it's important to clarify this here, as a great deal of common problems relate.

Also, neck turning only addresses a portion of runout caused by thickness variance(temporarily).
That variance runs full length of cases, and as the bodies are sized & sprung back they warp due to the variance. This, alittle bit more & more with each sizing cycle. The greater the body sizing, especially with long skinny cases, the faster runout builds.

If you fireform brass a few times with no more than partial neck sizing between, and then check runout, you'll find <1thou TIR off unsized necks. ANY sizing done from there creates runout.
Well, you'll have to size a 30-06 & you won't make straight ammo with blind luck or generalizations about this.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC