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Quick question on pulling bullets

 
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  #8  
Old 06-22-2010, 02:14 AM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

I agree with what Gene said about having inconsistant neck tension, as that has been my experience with them.
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  #9  
Old 06-22-2010, 02:28 AM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

I use neck bushings to do my neck sizing, so my neck tension is 0.002 - 0.003" to start with. Sometimes I can pull bullets and not tell much difference when re-seating without resizing the necks again. But I generally go ahead and remove the decapping pin and resize necks prior to reseating the pulled bullets. Doesn't take very long with the neck bushing dies.
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:36 AM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

I would resize the brass.
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  #11  
Old 06-22-2010, 11:52 AM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

If we mike case necks while loaded and again after pulling bullets we will find the they are .001' to .0015" smaller. That's all the real bullet "tension" we are going to get no matter how small the neck is before seating. Anything smaller than that only increases the seating effort as the neck is permantely expanded and stretched passed its elastic limits. Therefore, no matter if we resize or not, if we use the same bullets the actual bullet grip remains the same.

Last edited by boomtube; 06-22-2010 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:36 PM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomtube View Post
If we mike case necks while loaded and again after pulling bullets we will find the they are .001' to .0015" smaller. That's all the real bullet "tension" we are going to get no matter how small the neck is before seating. Anything smaller than that only increases the seating effort as the neck is permantely expanded and stretched passed its elastic limits. Therefore, no matter if we resize or not, if we use the same bullets the actual bullet grip remains the same.
I'll express my disagreement with the premise of this post. I believe it's much more complicated. I've experienced differing bullet tension when pulling bullets after seating bullets in cases that have been re-sized with different diameter neck bushings, simply as observed by the force on the press handle required to pull the bullets. Even more dramatic is the reduced force on the press handle required to pull the bullet a second time, after it's been seated the second time in the same brass case, without resizing the case neck prior to seating the bullet the second time.

I'm not referring to the force required to seat the bullet. I'm talking about the force in the opposite direction of the throw of the press handle - the direction to pull the bullets.

Target shooter's go to great lengths to obtain the same neck tension on each load. They don't run their case necks into different neck bushings or reloading dies, as if neck tension would remain the same. To complicate matters further, brass case neck elasticity changes with continued firings, resizing, and reuse.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:36 PM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

"I'll express my disagreement with the premise of this post. I believe it's much more complicated."

Okay. It is a bit more that totally simple but I don't see very much complexity to the effect.

The variations you experience are easily explainable, IMHO, but there isn't much we can do about it; different sizing methods sure won't change the case neck elasticity. It is what it is and the only way we an change it is to work harden it even more or anneal it softer.


"I've experienced differing bullet tension when pulling bullets after seating bullets in cases that have been re-sized with different diameter neck bushings, simply as observed by the force on the press handle required to pull the bullets."

Yep, lever resistance isn't a precise method of gaging "pull" but it can be obvious when we do it. But, I fail to see how that is a direct result of how the sizing was done. Was it due to how long you took between the seating and pulling? For reasons not worth going into here (This is about as long as it gets for me, I'm not interested in "writers cramp") jackets start to form a bond with necks pretty quickly. If we should seat in short steps and allow an extended time between steps we would see the same increased resistance/bond between steps. There's no way (I know of) to control that, so sizing with any method isn't what's causing the pull variations you experience.


"To complicate matters further, brass case neck elasticity changes with continued firings, resizing, and reuse."

True. But that has nothing to do with how much neck "tension" (elasticity) we get with simply pulling and restoring the bullets between any specfic firing/sizing cycle, does it? And THAT is what I addressed.


Last edited by boomtube; 06-23-2010 at 01:41 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-23-2010, 03:09 PM
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Re: Quick question on pulling bullets

I don't believe it can be presumed that the case neck tension on the bullet is somehow maximized by an inner case neck diameter/dimension resulting from the process of seating a bullet - pulling that bullet - and then reseating that bullet. Which is what was expressed in your intitial post, to my understanding. That might be a very good method for helping to ensure uniform case neck tension, but I don't think there's anything specific to that process that assures the end result is the maximum case neck to bullet tension possible. I would be very surprised if additional case neck resizing didn't result in some measurable increase in case neck-to-bullet tension. Or expressed another way, if the force needed on the press handle to pull the bullet couldn't be increased with some additional case neck resizing. One factor that would almost certainly change the resized inside case neck diameter required in order to maximize case neck tension would be the case neck wall thickness. Which can vary greatly depending on how much outside neck turning/truing may have been applied to the case neck. I would venture to say that the greater the case neck wall thickness, the more that additional resizing of the case neck (case neck diameter reduction) would increase case neck tension.

Experiment. Resize one case with a standard resizing die and neck expanding button. Pull the bullet and note the force. Re-seat the bullet into that same case without resizing it in the resizing die. Pull the bullet again. Expect less force on the handle to pull the bullet the second time. And then ask why the force would be less the second time. The force on the press handle required to remove the bullet is a better indicator of bullet/case neck tension than any of my posts in this thread. A person could connect a weight scale to the end of the press handle in order to document the applied force required to pull the bullets each time.

Only two broad explanations come to mind to explain this lesser press handle force for the 2nd bullet pulling step compared to the first bullet pulling step, as applied to any single cartridge case.

1) Firstly the coefficient of friction between the bullet and case neck has been altered due to the first bullet seating & pulling process.

For example, this differing coefficient of friction is very noticable when I seat bullets in ultrasonic cleaned cases versus cases with the interior case necks left carbon fouled from prior use - when using the same size neck resizing bushing on the same Lot of brass cases. Ultrasonically cleaned case necks have a much higher coefficient of friction during bullet seating or pulling, compared to my cases with carbon-fouled case necks. So much so that I have to readjust the depth of the bullet seating stem in order to obtain the same case head to bullet ogive measurement. I have to turn the bullet seating stem down further in order to get the bullet seating depth in the cleaned cases to match the seating depth of the carbon fouled case necks, due to the increased resistance to bullet seating. My ultrasonically cleaned cases actually result in a notably differing POI on 300 yd targets in my .280 RCBS Improved rifle, compared to identical loads fired with carbon fouled cases. I can only attribute this to significantly altered case neck/bullet interface coefficient of friction. If I seat, pull, and reseat a bullet in an ultrasoncally cleaned cartridge case, I note the 2nd bullet seating force(or 2nd bullet pulling force) is much lesser and I suspect the bullet/case neck interface coefficient of friction is substantially modified by smearing the interface during the initial bullet seating and pulling steps.

2) Secondly, the bullet to case neck interface force (case neck tension) has changed.
This could be because the property of the brass in the case neck has changed (is less elastic on the second bullet seating than it was on the first), because the case neck was not sized down to the smaller diameter - as it was by use of the resizing die with button expander prior to the first bullet seating and pulling process, or some other reason(s) causing less case neck tension on the bullet.

If a person demands the greatest consistency possible, then a fella better do all case prep identically for all cases. Modify cartridge case preparation and expect modified case neck tension. Only the individual reloader/shooter can determine what's good enough to be 'good enough' for their intended use of the ammo.

Not trying to stifle the expression of opinions or experiences. Just expressing mine, based on my reloading experiences.

Last edited by phorwath; 06-23-2010 at 04:29 PM.
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