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Polishing a body die?

 
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  #22  
Old 08-12-2013, 10:27 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsthntn247 View Post
Every top shooter at the range( all high masters) anneal after every firing.
In high power matches and classified as a high master, I've never annealed a case. .308 Win. cases went 20 to 30 reloads each, 30 caliber magnum ones 10 to 15 reloads each. Never had an unexplained flier from any reload. Few, if any of the best shots annealed cases after each use; some every 10 to 15 times and others like me; never.

A friend shot one Federal .308 Win. case 57 times full length sizing (die had its neck lapped out to .350" and no expander ball was used) it each time reducing fired case body diameter about .003" and setting the shoulder back about .0015" each time. With his match rifle clamped in a machine rest, all 57 bullets went into a single group a bit over3/10ths inch at 100 yards. Load was 42 grains of IMR4895 between a standard Fed. 210 primer and Sierra 168 HPMK bullet.
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  #23  
Old 08-12-2013, 10:48 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Bart B ..........

The difference in pressure isn't the issue here. A primer ignites more than a thousand times faster than powder (which is a very slow propellant). You're right about the case shoulder (on some types of rifles) getting pushed back. I'm just saying that a primer blasting the case forward (and itself rearward)has a greater effect than the tap from a firing pin.

jsthntn247 .........

You're right about the excessive case growth. I suspect you're improving scores reflect an improvement in your shooting skill. Practice, practice, practice ....
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  #24  
Old 08-12-2013, 12:29 PM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

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Originally Posted by larrywillis View Post
I'm just saying that a primer blasting the case forward (and itself rearward)has a greater effect than the tap from a firing pin.
Larry,

I've never had a primer in a primed case without powder or bullet back out of it's pocket any amount; not even with a weak firing pin spring in several centerfire rifles. I've shot dozens of them and they all stayed a couple thousandths below flush with the case head. There's too much force from the firing pin spring to let them back out. Cases so fired had their shoulders set back the same amount as if a dead primer was used. Proof to me that the case shoulders gets set back solely from firing pin impact on .308 Win. cases.

Only with live ammo with extreme reduced loads (more than 10%) in .308 Win. cases have I seen the primer backed out from flush with the case head. The more reduction there is, the more the primer is left sticking out of the case. With less than 10 % reduced loads with 168's in .308 cases (at least 40 grains of IMR4064 or 38 grains of IMR4895), the primer does back out a bit past case head to start out with, but the pressure at its peak is enough to push the back part of the case rearward until it stops against the bolt face pushing the primer back flush with the case head.
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  #25  
Old 08-14-2013, 08:00 PM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

I can see the group accuracy fall off after about 5 to 7 shots in my 308. Annealing brings the accuracy back as longas no other component is at fault .
I think a lot depends on chamber fit , brass quality , chamber pressures , and the way you reload . I don't seem to get much benefit from annealing in my 223 so I don't bother with it in the 223 .
I think their is so many different cartridges , chamber dimensions , reloading styles , component qualities etc etc etc. that no one person has all the answers for every situation . The best we can do is say what works for us in our situation .
Experts are only experts in their chosen field . Firearms and the shooting sports in general is a massive field of variations .
Why would the annealing operation exist if it was of no use in any situation ?
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  #26  
Old 08-15-2013, 06:53 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

It cannot be declared as though across the board that headspacing changes from firing pin impact, or even primer firing alone.
I tested this, firing primers in empty cases of 223, 6br, 6xc, and 6.5wssm. Head space was not affected in any of these. It was 1.5thou before and after the tests(my standard setting).
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  #27  
Old 08-15-2013, 08:10 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
It cannot be declared as though across the board that headspacing changes from firing pin impact, or even primer firing alone.
I tested this, firing primers in empty cases of 223, 6br, 6xc, and 6.5wssm. Head space was not affected in any of these. It was 1.5thou before and after the tests(my standard setting).
That's what I've seen firing .222 Rem., .220.250 and .243 primed empty cases then checking for shoulder setback from pin impact.

Hatcher, in his tests with .30-06 cartridges, found hard closing of an M1903 bolt on them would set the shoulder back 6 thousandths. Check this link:

Hatcher's Notebook - Julian S. Hatcher - Google Books

Other cases I've tested with less shoulder surface and shallower angles, i.e. those based on the .30-06 and .308 Win case 30 caliber and larger all showed some shoulder setback. Nickel plated .308 Win cases had more shoulder setback than brass ones. The .358 Win primed cases had the most shoulder setback.

The double rifle .375 Super Flanged Magnum developed around 1900 was made into a rimless case for trials in bolt action rifles. Firing pin impact on its small area, 17 degree shoulder from Mauser actions was enough to drive it forward setting the shoulder back enough to start causing incipient head separation. So they put a rimless belt on it in 1912 so that belt would control headspacing and prevent shoulder setback from firing pin impact as well as enable flawless feeding from box magaznies. That was the birth of the .375 H&H Magnum. Other rimmed cases also had belts added in the same time frame to control headspace in bolt action rifles.
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  #28  
Old 08-15-2013, 08:58 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

As I said in post 17, it would take a very long chapter to fully explain shoulder setback. There are a jillion different calibers, hard primers, soft primers, light/fast firing pins, heavy/slow firing pins, that affect shoulder setback.
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