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Polishing a body die?

 
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  #64  
Old 08-21-2013, 06:47 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOM H View Post
I'm glad that you acknowledge the BR shooters and their winning and setting record with proper full length sizing dies for decades and their guns shoot just as accurate as the LR Benchrest rifles.
I never said nor put in print that BR shooters won and set records with full length sizing dies for decades. You got mixed up reading my comment that another rifle shooting discipline had done that. Proof's shown in my comments you quoted. Please read them again, then figure out how you got mixed up.

Quote:
I'm sure you go back and correct this post about the new record of .0077" as just being
luck....
No, I won't. Here's why.

Both the biggest and smallest groups shot by benchresters or any other shooter, statistically speaking, are luck. It's like rolling dice. Out of 100 rolls, the fewest results will be snake eyes and boxcars as the odds are equal for each; one a big number and the other's a small one. One extreme happens just as often, statistically, as the other. No benchrester knows ahead of time what size group will be shot. Their shooting system has a lot of variables. Only when they all cancel each other out or all are at zero spread are single few-shot groups the smallest; there's no way to tell which one it is.

The facts are that their largest ones shot in aggregate matches exist, but are rarely publically acknowledged nor considered by people talking about accuracy. But it's easy to estimate how much bigger the largest group was in agg. records or scores. And the more groups shot in an agg. match, the bigger the average is that's put on the board. To say nothing about the fact that everyone elses agg. and individual groups are larger than the records. And rarely does a single few-shot record holder also hold a many-group aggregate record; which should tell folks something about the odds that allowed that record to come out of a system comprising rifle, ammo and shooter.

All the above aside, the odds of a good shooter, ammo, rifle and conditions all coming together at the same time increase the odds of a single, few-shot group being the tiniest ever. So all the stuff involved has to be the best available. When it happens, it's still at the small end of that system's statistical curve. When all the variables add up in the same direction, the single group size or many group aggregate size will be the biggest ever.

I don't think all of this is very hard to understand and acknowledge. Which is why I'll applaud the person who shot the smallest aggregate group average comprising the most many-shot groups. For example, the NBRSA 1000-yard six 10-shot group agg record's 6.406 inches. Which tells me his groups ranged from about 9 inches (or more) on down to around 3 inches (or less). Compare that to the record single 5-shot group of 1.473 inch.

Last edited by Bart B; 08-21-2013 at 08:32 AM.
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  #65  
Old 08-21-2013, 08:13 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 787
Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
I never said nor put in print that BR shooters won and set records with full length sizing dies for decades. You got mixed up reading my comment that another rifle shooting discipline had done that. Proof's shown in my comments you quoted. Please read them again, then figure out how you got mixed up.

No, I won't. Here's why.

Both the biggest and smallest groups shot by benchresters or any other shooter, statistically speaking, are luck. It's like rolling dice. Out of 100 rolls, the fewest results will be snake eyes and boxcars as the odds are equal for each; one a big number and the other's a small one. One extreme happens just as often, statistically, as the other. No benchrester knows ahead of time what size group will be shot. Their shooting system has a lot of variables. Only when they all cancel each other out are single few-shot groups the smallest.

The facts are that their largest ones shot in aggregate matches exist, but are rarely publically acknowledged nor considered by people talking about accuracy. But it's easy to estimate how much bigger the largest group was in agg. records or scores. And the more groups shot in an agg. match, the bigger the average is that's put on the board. To say nothing about the fact that everyone elses agg. and individual groups are larger than the records. And rarely does a single few-shot record holder also hold a many-group aggregate record; which should tell folks something about the odds that allowed that record to come out of a system comprising rifle, ammo and shooter.

All the above aside, the odds of a good shooter, ammo, rifle and conditions all coming together at the same time increase the odds of a single, few-shot group being the tiniest ever. So all the stuff involved has to be the best available. When it happens, it's still at the small end of that system's statistical curve. When all the variables add up in the same direction, the single group size or many group aggregate size will be the biggest ever.

I don't think all of this is very hard to understand and acknowledge.
Well since you don't post on the BR site or follow it but they do post match results here is good example
2013 Super Shoot Results

I can say the same for what you shoot which is a score shoot bases on points vs group. Your agg on 3 targets 15 shot each @ 800yd/900yd and 1000yd if it was based on group would agg maybe 3ft that be 36" group and it could go higher and it may go to 20"

Your on a long range hunting site giving advise about accuracy when we all shoot groups. Your X ring is 10" and 10 ring is 20" and 9 ring is 30". I don't know many here that would consider 30" groups at 1000yd an accurate Long Range hunting rifle or consider loading for a rifle like that.

I guess if we all hunted with F-Class Palma rifle and shot prone we be talking apples to apples.
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  #66  
Old 08-21-2013, 08:38 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOM H View Post
Your on a long range hunting site giving advise about accuracy when we all shoot groups. Your X ring is 10" and 10 ring is 20" and 9 ring is 30". I don't know many here that would consider 30" groups at 1000yd an accurate Long Range hunting rifle or consider loading for a rifle like that.
They might shooting off the shoulder slung up in prone without a rest shooting 20 to 30 shots in a string.

Few, if any, folks shooting a benchrest rig in a shoulder-fired prone match on bullseye targets would place in the top half of the scores.

Thanks for posting that link to some groups at a match. I've asked several stool shooters (some record holders) to send me such a link so I could see all the group sizes shot. One agg record holder did not tell me the largest group size shot in that record; he wouldn't even go close to letting me know that 'cause it was probably huge. Nobody's done that, 'cept for you. I appreciate that.

Last edited by Bart B; 08-21-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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  #67  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:08 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
They might shooting off the shoulder slung up in prone without a rest shooting 20 to 30 shots in a string.

Few, if any, folks shooting a benchrest rig in a shoulder-fired prone match on bullseye targets would place in the top half of the scores.
Bart B, were talking about what you shoot which is score vs group and this is a long range hunting site you may have forgotten that and we do base accuracy on groups not score.

Your the one that claiming all this reloading experience but based on score shooting and the point system your loads are accurate for what you shoot. Maybe some here don't realize the size of the target you shoot and when you figure 10 points = 20" and that shot could be anywhere within that dia.
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  #68  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:40 AM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOM H View Post
Your the one that claiming all this reloading experience but based on score shooting and the point system your loads are accurate for what you shoot.
Wrong again.

I base my experience and methods in reloading in group shooting testing rifles and ammo. Included are what other who shoot bullseye targets for score but base their reloading methods and experience on testing rifles and ammo shooting groups. Why do you think many would test their rifles and ammo from a machine rest to eliminate all the human variables? But a good marksman can fairly accurately determin the group-shooting ability of a 1/2 MOA rifle and ammo system when he shoots it into 1.5 MOA on a bullseye target. I think you're smart enough to figure out how this is done without me having to explain how. And shooting prone like the F-class folks do, slung up with fixed support under the stock's fore end and toe, an otherwise bullseye shooter can have a hold area on paper under 1/10th MOA; sometimes smaller. While not virtually zero MOA like benchresters have with their rifles resting still atop bags and rests, that's good enough to eliminate 95% of the human error.

A lot of my insights into reloading for accuracy came from from an old friend I've shot many a match with, Martin James Hull, Sierra Bullets' first ballistic tech. He's probably reloaded more rifle cartridges of all types and shot them in more rifle types, as well as rail guns testing them for accuracy standards, than anyone else on this planet. If he got their best match bullets shot into the ones at 100 yards from unprepped cases and no load workup for different lots of components using good full length sizing tools and techniques, that carries weight in my judgement bag.

It may not matter that a bullseye shooter testing his stuff group shooting several sub 1/4th MOA 10-shot groups at 600 yards with the rifle free recoiling, has, at his best, kept all 60 shots over three 20 shot matches shooting prone off the shoulder inside 1-1/2 MOA on all three targets shooting prone. While my own long range prone rifles and ammo will shoot sub 1/2 MOA in near free-recoil tests at 800 or 1000 yards, my best scores on bullseye targets had group sizes a bit about 2 MOA.

Last edited by Bart B; 08-21-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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  #69  
Old 08-21-2013, 05:48 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 787
Re: Polishing a body die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
Wrong again.

I base my experience and methods in reloading in group shooting testing rifles and ammo. Included are what other who shoot bullseye targets for score but base their reloading methods and experience on testing rifles and ammo shooting groups. Why do you think many would test their rifles and ammo from a machine rest to eliminate all the human variables? But a good marksman can fairly accurately determin the group-shooting ability of a 1/2 MOA rifle and ammo system when he shoots it into 1.5 MOA on a bullseye target. I think you're smart enough to figure out how this is done without me having to explain how. And shooting prone like the F-class folks do, slung up with fixed support under the stock's fore end and toe, an otherwise bullseye shooter can have a hold area on paper under 1/10th MOA; sometimes smaller. While not virtually zero MOA like benchresters have with their rifles resting still atop bags and rests, that's good enough to eliminate 95% of the human error.

A lot of my insights into reloading for accuracy came from from an old friend I've shot many a match with, Martin James Hull, Sierra Bullets' first ballistic tech. He's probably reloaded more rifle cartridges of all types and shot them in more rifle types, as well as rail guns testing them for accuracy standards, than anyone else on this planet. If he got their best match bullets shot into the ones at 100 yards from unprepped cases and no load workup for different lots of components using good full length sizing tools and techniques, that carries weight in my judgement bag.

It may not matter that a bullseye shooter testing his stuff group shooting several sub 1/4th MOA 10-shot groups at 600 yards with the rifle free recoiling, has, at his best, kept all 60 shots over three 20 shot matches shooting prone off the shoulder inside 1-1/2 MOA on all three targets shooting prone. While my own long range prone rifles and ammo will shoot sub 1/2 MOA in near free-recoil tests at 800 or 1000 yards, my best scores on bullseye targets had group sizes a bit about 2 MOA.
Bart you just don't get it that this is a long range hunting site and majority of shooters are groups shooters and were not really into 20/15 shots 20" or larger groups.

You may shoot all the small moa at practice but for some reason you can't shot them at a match and in a LR hunting rifle first shot counts.

That's all I got to say.
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  #70  
Old 08-21-2013, 06:57 PM
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Re: Polishing a body die?

TOM H what does bench rest shooting have to do with long range hunting? What does shooting a 60-80 lb rail gun at a target have to do with long range hunting? Barts discipline of shooting 600-800-1000 yards with a sling and open sights has a heck of a lot more to do with field shooting than bench rest any day. Until you can put 20 rounds in 3.325 inches at 800 yards like Bart has then maybe I'll listen to you, until then I think I'll listen to Bart as I know he is very knowledgeable and has helped me with a lot of reloading questions by just reading his posts.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...c/Uow_LL-o2dwJ
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