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is it normal ???

 
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  #15  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:03 PM
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Re: is it normal ???

Your welcome
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  #16  
Old 03-08-2013, 08:27 PM
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Re: is it normal ???

If the cartridge came out your chamber without a problem after you fired it, why would you insinuate that anything but the neck would need to be sized to re-chamber it ? I don't understand that logic, frankly. You should be able to take the fired shell and re-chamber it without any issue ? Have you ever had a case when you could not do that ?

With a semi auto it is a different story because instead of your hand on the bolt one is relying on some energy stored in the recoil spring to strip off a round from the magazine, stuff it in the chamber and close the bolt. So a semi is limited on resources for chambering match ammo, which we are NOT when working a bolt gun.

If the OP has a gun with a loose head space and he full length resizes every time, he is going to reach a situation of a case head separation far sooner than if he would just neck size (assuming the brass is only fired in the one chamber, and not shared between multiple guns).

Personally, I think the "neck size only" rule for bolt guns is about the first lesson I got in reloading and it has served me very well indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty7mmstw View Post
I FL size everything; I want it to actually chamber when I'm hunting. That said, I adjust my dies to the rifle. I can usually get it down to a couple of thou. growth.

I must digress about the expander ball comment; if your necks are properly lubed the expander ball does nearly nothing to grow a neck. Run that sucker through on a highly carboned up dry neck and it's another story though; it's all a matter of using your tools correctly. The main growth factors are the brass's diameter change between fired and sized and the length of the brass being corrected shorter for headspace. That is usually less than .003" total growth.
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  #17  
Old 03-09-2013, 02:07 PM
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Re: is it normal ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcliffe01 View Post
If the cartridge came out your chamber without a problem after you fired it, why would you insinuate that anything but the neck would need to be sized to re-chamber it ? I don't understand that logic, frankly. You should be able to take the fired shell and re-chamber it without any issue ? Have you ever had a case when you could not do that ?
The reason Sierra Bullets, all the high power match rifle shooters winning and setting records and more recently the benchrest folks full length size their fired cases is threefold.

First off, full length sizing fired cases in dies with the right bushing (no expander ball) end up with their necks better centered on the case shoulder. Neck only dies don't hold the case shoulder nor body well aligned with the case neck when sized.

Second, as there's no such thing as a perfectly round chamber nor cases, reducing the body diameter a thousandth or so ensures the case will not interfere with, and therefore be off-centered by, its interference with the chamber body. And setting the fired case shoulder back a thousandths or two ensure the case will not bind the bolt when its closes; binding bolts don't close in the same spot every time and that degrades accuracy. Neck only sizing demands full length sizing after a few to several neck sizing to prevent binding in these areas.

Third, as all bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulder center perfectly in the chamber front when fired; better centered necks and bullets in them results in better accuracy. It doesn't matter how much clearance there is around the case body.

Most benchresters full length size these days with dies having bushings in them, or necks sized to size case necks just enough to hold the bullets. Sierra Bullets' has been full length sizing fired bottleneck cases used to test bullets for accuracy since the 1950's and I doubt anyone shoots their stuff more accurate than they do.

I've seen thousands of fired cases that will not fit back into the Garand's chamber I shot them in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcliffe01 View Post
So a semi is limited on resources for chambering match ammo, which we are NOT when working a bolt gun.
The M1 and M14 rifles have had no problem chambering new match ammo. Millions or rounds of it has chambered perfectly. And the best of those match grade semiauto service rifles have shot new commercial match ammo more accurate than most people shoot their reloaded ammo in their bolt guns.

Last edited by Bart B; 03-09-2013 at 02:56 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-09-2013, 02:49 PM
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Re: is it normal ???

A Garand is a semi automatic for which neck sizing will not work as I said.

I have not had problems with closing the bolt on my neck sized brass. I am not, nor has the OP mentioned bench rest shooting.

The point I am trying to make is that for hunting or casual target shooting, neck sizing works perfectly well and will yield great brass life. Whereas full length sizing with "regular" (as opposed to custom) dies will substantially reduce brass life.

If the OP was into any of the exotic shooting sports you mentioned, he would not have asked the question he did. He probably doesn't have the kind of budget that those competitors have either. A Lee Collet neck sizing die is about $22 at Midway and it is also a depriming die at the same time. A Redding body sizing die is another <$30. The results I get for a <$60 investment are pretty acceptable (1/2 MOA). May not set any records, but thats not what I am after anyhow.
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  #19  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:04 PM
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Re: is it normal ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by westcliffe01 View Post
The point I am trying to make is that for hunting or casual target shooting, neck sizing works perfectly well and will yield great brass life. Whereas full length sizing with "regular" (as opposed to custom) dies will substantially reduce brass life.

If the OP was into any of the exotic shooting sports you mentioned, he would not have asked the question he did. He probably doesn't have the kind of budget that those competitors have either.
I've got 30+ reloads on .308 Win. cases with max charges using standard RCBS full length sizing dies correctly set in the press for my .308 chambers. Ammo from them easily shot under 4 inches at 600 yards.

One does not need expensive dies to load excellent ammo. All it takes is setting the standard ones correctly in the press.

While neck only sizing works, it ain't "perfectly" well. Besides, proper full length sizng always guarantees easy chambering; neck only sizing doesn't.

Last edited by Bart B; 03-09-2013 at 05:34 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-09-2013, 08:51 PM
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Re: is it normal ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
The reason Sierra Bullets, all the high power match rifle shooters winning and setting records and more recently the benchrest folks full length size their fired cases is threefold.

First off, full length sizing fired cases in dies with the right bushing (no expander ball) end up with their necks better centered on the case shoulder. Neck only dies don't hold the case shoulder nor body well aligned with the case neck when sized.

Second, as there's no such thing as a perfectly round chamber nor cases, reducing the body diameter a thousandth or so ensures the case will not interfere with, and therefore be off-centered by, its interference with the chamber body. And setting the fired case shoulder back a thousandths or two ensure the case will not bind the bolt when its closes; binding bolts don't close in the same spot every time and that degrades accuracy. Neck only sizing demands full length sizing after a few to several neck sizing to prevent binding in these areas.

Third, as all bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulder center perfectly in the chamber front when fired; better centered necks and bullets in them results in better accuracy. It doesn't matter how much clearance there is around the case body.

Most benchresters full length size these days with dies having bushings in them, or necks sized to size case necks just enough to hold the bullets. Sierra Bullets' has been full length sizing fired bottleneck cases used to test bullets for accuracy since the 1950's and I doubt anyone shoots their stuff more accurate than they do.

I've seen thousands of fired cases that will not fit back into the Garand's chamber I shot them in.

The M1 and M14 rifles have had no problem chambering new match ammo. Millions or rounds of it has chambered perfectly. And the best of those match grade semiauto service rifles have shot new commercial match ammo more accurate than most people shoot their reloaded ammo in their bolt guns.
+1
I agree whole heartily with this. I don't even own a neck sizing die.... I'm looking at getting a few bushing FL dies for my more accurate rifles to better control neck tension though. Still playing the button expander game but most of my pipes are putting up 1" groups at 200 yards even with those dies.

Two basic rules here... one... use your tools correctly... a properly set up FL die will not grow necks enough to worry about trimming any more than every four to five firings... so the biggest help of a neck die is really a moot point

and two...don't buck what works for people with a hell of a lot more experience with ammo that "needs to work" than me.. I load thousands of rounds... they load hundreds of thousands of rounds
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  #21  
Old 03-10-2013, 06:19 AM
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Re: is it normal ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty7mmstw View Post
use your tools correctly... a properly set up FL die will not grow necks enough to worry about trimming any more than every four to five firings... so the biggest help of a neck die is really a moot point
I once reloaded the same .308 Win. case 46 times with a max charge of 4895 under 165 SBT bullets. The FL die was set to reduce fired case body diameters and set the shoulder back and 2 thousandths for each. Chamber was a standard SAAMI spec at 1.6305" headspace. A new Federal case was trimmed to 2.000" to start with.

After the first firing, the case was about 1.998". Full length sizing in grew it to about 2.0007". It did that same shorten and lengthen change after 10 or so fire and reload cycles ending up about 2.007" long, then was trimmed back to 2.000". This repeated itself for the next 30 or so firings. I ran out of test powder at 46 reloads on that case.
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