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Norma 217

 
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2014, 02:45 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Montana
Posts: 7
Re: Norma 217

Update.

First outing with Mountain Rifles Inc., custom lightweight 30-378, 26" barrel -- The rifle weighs 7 Lbs 11 oz with 4.5 - 14x Zeiss in Talley rings and bases.

Weatherby cases and Fed 215 Primers.

Only shot one round of each load -- 60 Deg F and chrono halfway to 25 yd target.


180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,122fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.





168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 116.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,308fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 113.5gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.

Norma 217 isn't the same burn rate as H50BMG and from Norma's data it is slower than MRP2.

The muzzle brake is incredibly effective and the stock design fits me perfectly. Most comfortable 30 magnum I've ever shot. To my surprise I didn't notice any concussion usually associated with lots of powder and muzzle breaks. Additionally, the noise level wasn't any worse than anything else I shoot (ear plugs only). Of course my hearing isn't all that great anyway.



FWIW,

Paul
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  #9  
Old 05-25-2014, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Montana
Posts: 7
Re: Norma 217

For those interested in Norma 217.



Recap – Some redundant info (i.e. posted above).

30-378 Weatherby Mag – Mountain Rifles Inc. Custom Lightweight – 26” Barrel

Yes, I know one shot chronograph results are suspect.

NOTE: LOAD DATA FOR INFO ONLY – NOT A RECOMMENDATION!

I contacted Western Powder and got load data for Norma 217 in the 30-378. It was a copy of info from the latest Norma loading manual. Min and Max loads were the same for both 165gr (113.5gr N217) and 180gr (110gr N217) bullets.

Western Powder didn't know why only one load was listed for Norma 217 and wouldn't make a recommendation RE lower start load.


I emailed Norma USA RE Norma 217 "same" Min Max powder charge -- their response:

“Hi Paul

Yes we have same loads. if we go down on powder what is normal, barrel time be longer and pressure went up.
So it is for safety. Don’t load different than manual is saying.”


First outing with Mountain Rifles Inc., custom lightweight 30-378, 26" barrel -- The rifle weighs 7 Lbs 11 oz with 4.5 - 14x Zeiss in Talley rings and bases.

Weatherby cases and Fed 215 Primers.

Only shot one round of each load -- 60 Deg F and chrono halfway to 25 yd target.


180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,122fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.


168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 116.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,308fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 113.5gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.

While waiting for a response to an email to Norma explaining my results and asking them if (under these circumstances) can the powder charge be reduced and if so, how much, I shot the following (one round only).


180gr Nosler Partition, Norma 1x cases, Fed 215, Chrono @20’:

5-16-2014 (60 Deg F)
110.0gr 50BMG, 3,122 fps

110.0gr Norma 217, did not register fps

5-18-2014 (45 Deg F)
112.0gr 50BMG, 3,182 fps
113.0gr 50BMG, 3,189 fps
114.0gr 50BMG, 3,236 fps


168gr Barnes Tipped TSX, Norma 1x cases, Fed 215, Chrono @20’:

5-16-2014 (60 Deg F)
116.0gr 50BMG, 3,308 fps
113.5gr Norma 217, did not register fps

5-18-2014 (45 Deg F)
117.0gr 50BMG, 3,350 fps
118.0gr 50BMG, 3,392fps
119.0gr 50BMG, 3,427 fps

Did not shoot Norma 217

Received following email from Norma:

“You can reduce powder not more than 3 grain, but how long is free bore with bullet? You need at least 3mm or more. How strong is bullet sitting in.
Is barrel clean? How is velocity. Check this thing.”
Note: Per Norma email, I checked -- Freebore .361 - .400 best I can tell (Wtby lists .361” freebore for 30-378). Barrel is very clean. Bullet slips freely in and out of fired case neck.
Reduced Norma 217 load 2 grains (misread email thought it said max redux 2 gr).

5-23-2014 (70 Deg F)
111.5gr Norma 217, 3,609 fps avg (2 Shots 3,584, 3,603)


120.0gr 50BMG, 3,427 fps (chrono, or ES overlap?)
121.0gr 50BMG, 3,427 fps (chrono, or ES overlap?)


5-24-2014 (60 Deg F)
111.5gr Norma 217, 3,619 fps avg (3 shots 3,603, 3632, 3,603)

Bolt lift – slight resistance midway thru upstroke. Reduce to 110.5 gr and try again.


121.0gr 50BMG, 3,475 fps avg (4 shots 3,490(2), 3454, 3,472)

NOTE: LOAD DATA FOR INFO ONLY – NOT A RECOMMENDATION!


Burn Rate Chart Including Norma 217 faster than Retumbo and H1000 (roughly same as RL25 and IMR7828SC)

LHS-Germany GmbH: *Comparison Charts

Point of comparison - member on 24hourcampfire ran Quickload data for 168gr TTSX and Norma 217 in 30-378 w/26" bbl.

-02.0 99 107.80gr 3,284fps Near Maximum !
+00.0 101 110.00gr 3,350fps Near Maximum !
+02.0 103 112.20gr 3,415fps DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 105 114.40gr 3,479fps DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

FWIW,


Paul
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  #10  
Old 06-06-2014, 11:06 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Montana
Posts: 7
Re: Norma 217

Just wanted to update this post. It shows how different guns are. Norma ballistics tech, Quickload, and actual shooting experience. Here is a chronology of events:

I contacted Norma on several occasions – this is the result.

Update and Recap on .30-378 Weatherby Magnum

Weatherby specs list freebore is .361” for the .30-378 Wtby Mag. Best I can tell freebore on the rifle I have is at least .361 and maybe a bit more.

Rifle is clean.

Fired cases allow bullet to slide in and out freely (necks not too thick).

Barrel Length: 26”
Action: Dakota 97

Loaded with Norma 217 (Lot Number 0603 135067)
1x factory fired Weatherby cases
Federal 215 magnum primers
168gr Barnes Tipped TSX
Seated at 3.645” OAL

Chronograh set 20’ (about 6 meters) from muzzle.

Per Norma’s instructions, I started with one round at 113.5gr as listed in manual for 165gr oryx – sticky bolt uplift (for about the width of the extractor cut), extractor cut mark on case head, extraction normal and velocity didn’t register on chronograph. Temp – 65-70 Deg F

After email from Norma (saying drop charge no more than 3 grains) I tried 111.5gr – velocity average 3,609 fps at 70 Deg F. Bolt lift not completely normal with resistance on initial uplift and some resistance midway thru bolt uplift (each case was a bit different) – extractor cut marks on several case heads, and extraction was normal.

Dropped charge to 110.5gr – velocity 3,567 fps. Bolt lift and case head marks less noticeable than 111.5gr but still evident to some degree. Temp 65 Deg F

Dropped charge to 109.5gr – velocity 3,520 fps. Bolt lift normal, case head normal. Temp 60 Deg F.

It looks like I should stop at 109.5gr – does this sound reasonable and 3,520 fps.

Tried the 109.5gr load again – again, initial bolt lift still balking slightly and extractor cut marks on case head.

Went down to 108.5gr – chrono gave 3,463 fps and bolt lift was totally normal, although several cases showed slight ejector cut marks. Used two chronos one behind the other. Shot 3 at 200 yards and got a 2” group – vertical dispersion was ¾” – wind was fairly strong and swirling which may account for horiz spread (which I can live with even if not wind related).]

I finally feel comfortable with this load and will load 20 to verify.

To put this into perspective – 118.0gr of H50BMG at 3,380 w/168gr TTSX is max in this gun (as much as 123.0gr is listed as max in various reliable sources).
..

The following is from a poster on the 24hourcampfire -- Quickload data

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...50#Post8925950


[CODE]Cartridge : .30-378 Weath. Mag.
Bullet : .308, 168, Barnes 'TTSX'BT 30878
Useable Case Capaci: 120.538 grain H2O = 7.826 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.655 inch = 92.84 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Norma 217

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 80 88.00 2664 2648 30235 12799 94.9 1.693
-18.0 82 90.20 2734 2789 32422 13177 96.1 1.652
-16.0 84 92.40 2804 2934 34785 13528 97.2 1.613
-14.0 86 94.60 2874 3082 37301 13847 98.1 1.574
-12.0 88 96.80 2944 3233 39963 14133 98.9 1.535
-10.0 90 99.00 3013 3387 42794 14382 99.4 1.498
-08.0 92 101.20 3082 3544 45817 14593 99.8 1.455
-06.0 94 103.40 3150 3702 49046 14763 100.0 1.409
-04.0 97 105.60 3218 3863 52495 14896 100.0 1.364
-02.0 99 107.80 3284 4024 56180 15020 100.0 1.322 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 101 110.00 3350 4187 60119 15140 100.0 1.280 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 103 112.20 3415 4350 64329 15256 100.0 1.240 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 105 114.40 3479 4516 68834 15367 100.0 1.202 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 107 116.60 3543 4682 73657 15473 100.0 1.165 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 109 118.80 3606 4851 78824 15574 100.0 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 111 121.00 3669 5021 84365 15670 100.0 1.095 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 110.00 3496 4559 73916 14586 100.0 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 110.00 3126 3646 46492 15592 98.3 1.433



Regards,

Paul
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