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Neck-Turning - What order to do?

 
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  #22  
Old 04-04-2014, 03:43 PM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
I turn new necks, up onto shoulders, to head-off donuts.
If you fireform first, you've missed this donut addressing, and you might struggle to get full length of necks sized and expanded for good turning mandrel fit.

New brass is ready for expansion and perfect fit, right out of the box.
Now if you're forming a new cartridge, things need to be planned out & may change.
Mike,

I'm curious as to why you mention the possibility of donuts from fire forming before you turns the necks, unless you're referring to wildcat cartridges.
A few months ago, I purchased some Remington 22-250 brass. Some of is so bad when I neck turn it the angle portion of the cutter cuts on one side of the shoulder, a good 4-5 thousands before it will cut any other portion of the shoulder.
I feel like I may have ruined approx. 40 rounds because of this. I made a precision sub-collet with a step in the ID in order to rotate the brass in my Hardinge lathe & the neck OD on half of them ran out as much as 30-35 thousands TIR. I finally decided to fire form the remainder so the cartridge will be filled out & perpendicular to the base. I can't see how it's possible for a donut to form on factory brass in a factory chamber. This should insure when the cutter reaches the shoulder area, it will cut more concentric to the shoulder.
I also recently purchased 100 rounds of Lapua brass in the same caliber & after checking them, they run much truer (.002"-.015", although I haven't turned any of them yet.

Please enlighten me.

Spencer
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  #23  
Old 04-04-2014, 04:19 PM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

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Originally Posted by TracySes23 View Post
Mike,

I'm curious as to why you mention the possibility of donuts from fire forming before you turns the necks, unless you're referring to wildcat cartridges.

Please enlighten me.

Spencer
I'd like to hear more from Mike also. I remember reading his post the first time, and I presumed this was a reference to wildcat cartridges, where the shoulder is blown forward out into what would have originally been part of the neck on the parent cartridge.

But I can't think of any reason not to outside neck turn on new brass on factory cartridges, unless its so non-concentric that you encounter the issues you had. I full length size new cases in standard factory cartridges and then insert the neck expanding mandrel into the re-sized virgin case neck to prepare the inner case neck ID for outside turning on my K&M neck turning tool.

I especially like to outside neck turn prior to fire forming wildcats because I don't need to turn up into the shoulder prior to fire forming. Just turn the necks up to the edge of the shoulder. After fire forming, a portion of the turned neck on the parent case is then shifted back into the shoulder of the fire formed wildcat case, preventing future donut formation.

Last edited by phorwath; 04-04-2014 at 06:55 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-04-2014, 06:22 PM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

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Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
I'd like to hear more from Mike also.
There are a number of people on this site who are very experienced & knowledgeable. Mike is one I have a lot of respect for. Usually I much prefer to ask a question which will get me some clarifying info without offending or burning a bridge to a flow of good info.

If I want to say something that might be a correction of something posted. I'll sometimes send a PM instead, so it'll keep either of us from looking bad.

I've learned to edit my responses as much as 4-5 times before I see all the typos or ignorant statements. We're all ignorant about something.
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  #25  
Old 04-04-2014, 09:09 PM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

Until turned all necks hold increased thickness near the neck-shoulder junction (compared to case mouth or mid-neck thickness). This is inherent to brass manufacture. Whether or not it comes into play depends on your reloading plan and actions. For instance, if you FL size unturned necks, you have donuts, and if you seat bullet bearing near this, your accuracy probably isnít as good as it could be. Constant annealing may seem to Ďfixí this and other bad plans. In forming a wildcat you can amplify or reduce this (all part of the plan and management). I imagine a big number of reloaders are now using bushing dies, which partial neck size, allowing inherent donuts to remain beyond interference even while seating deep enough for magazine fit.
Brass moves with body sizing upward, thick towards thin. Even if you begin without donut issue, when you body size, youíre moving brass thickness upwards toward case mouths(where you trim some of it away). The neck-shoulder junction is getting thicker too. This is apparently part of many peoples plan, and they re-turn, or ream, or maybe ignore it due to short brass life anyway. But there are 4 benefits in outside turning:
1. Managed thickness/bullet grip
2. Managed neck clearance
3. Lower TIR
4. Getting ahead of donuts
Where you can turn a bit onto shoulders, you can address donut formation right from the git-go. Depending on the cartridge & chamber design, you might forever remove donuts from issue. But if youíve fireformed the cases beforehand, you lose benefit #4. Thatís all I meanít there, and it might not matter for you.
Also, new brass just happens to be semi-ready to load. The less manipulation to this, the easier and better your turning. You should plan to simply expand new from the box necks, and turn. There should be no benefit in further sizing(FL or fireforming) for this operation. The fireforming later brings it all together(finishes the operation).
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  #26  
Old 04-04-2014, 10:16 PM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

Oh yeah, another thing; Don't try to re-invent neck turning. It really is so easy a caveman can do it.
When you can't align it, float it.
Turning systems are based on your hand holding and feeding of the cutter onto necks (floating). They're designed with matching components. Use them as designed, and it won't ever matter how much runout there is in the brass. The results will still be excellent.
Don't fireform 1st or FL size to try to make cases wobble less during turning. You'll just complicate what is otherwise -not broken.
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  #27  
Old 04-05-2014, 01:07 PM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

Mike, I've often wondered whether a neck will re-center in alignment with the case body if you turn and it is off-center to begin with because of thick-thin variance

IOW like this pic shows



Will fire forming a turned neck like in the pic move the neck over to back in alignment?

It would be better to have good brass with little neck thickness variance to begin with but if you have a neck with .002" or .003" variance, will turning correct the problem. Or does the thick-thin variance extend into the shoulder-case body and problems will continue with that brass?
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  #28  
Old 04-06-2014, 01:45 AM
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Re: Neck-Turning - What order to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woods View Post
Mike, I've often wondered whether a neck will re-center in alignment with the case body if you turn and it is off-center to begin with because of thick-thin variance
No it wonít align anything. Turning only getís thickness to a standard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by woods View Post
Will fire forming a turned neck like in the pic move the neck over to back in alignment?
Yes, somehow fire forming does, turned or not. Brass is and must be fire formed to straight- initially (dies cannot do it).


Quote:
Originally Posted by woods View Post
It would be better to have good brass with little neck thickness variance to begin with but if you have a neck with .002" or .003" variance, will turning correct the problem. Or does the thick-thin variance extend into the shoulder-case body and problems will continue with that brass?
Turning addresses necks only. The case body is another matter that is still affected by thickness variance, because this runs full length of cases.
But again, somehow, fire forming brings cases to straightness regardless of thickness variance - initially.
The only thing that changes this straight condition is sizing(actual yielding). While you never size the case body, and with turned necks, runout does not grow. Itís when you run a case forming in a loose SAAMI chamber through a tight SAMMI FL die that you Ďrelease the Krakení and TIR grows, and continues with each cycle toward a new shape, and cannot ever be fixed because you canít remove the added energy from FL sizing(would take full body annealing and re-FF).
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