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neck sizing or fll length sizing

 
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  #15  
Old 05-17-2010, 07:45 AM
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Re: neck sizing or fll length sizing

OK lets make the same arguements for FL sizing.

NS only is nothing more than a shortcut in reloading and feel good compensation for failure to measure and properly set up your dies. Certainly not needed or the best, but feels good.

NS only works maybe, (never been or will be proven in a factory chamber and barrel to be better than proper FL die) until the 3rd of 4th reload and then you have to FL size the case with a body die and neck die.

Cold hard reality, the brass keeps expanding so nothing uniform here, big misconceptiong if you believe that. So in stark reality different dimensions each time for NS brass and not uniform as stated.

Once again the feel good mode.

Guess what aslo, using a body die and NS die equals FL sizing!

If a body die is OK to use the 4th time firing, why isn't it OK to use after the first? Someone explain that.

Failure to check each and every NS only loaded round thru the action can and has resulted in a failure to chamber or hard chambering at the wrong time.

Why risk a hunt because of failure to chamber or hard chamber?

OK so you check them ahead of time and some are hard to chamber, what do you do? Take a rubber mallet with you or take them apart and size and then reload them. That certainly sounds like a way to approach a lifetime hunt.

Does anyone really think that a case that is expanding in body and shoulder length each time to the point of difficulty to load is the same and uniform? Totally defies logic and common sense to even think it does.

NS only advocates, Do you segregate your cases by 1, 2, or 3 firings and keep them separate? Otherwise they are all over the map in actual dimensions and nothing uniform and just feel good again. That is undisputable.

FYI a JLC converted die is not a simple NS bump die as stated. IT is a FL size die with neck bushings that is matched to your chamber. Go read the redding literature about the body die, it FL sizes the body and bumps the shoulder.

Now we all agree that a properly adjusted and fitted die is the way to go.

You can use a one piece FL die or a NS and body bump die that is fitted IF you just want to do two steps. Either way it is FL sizing.

As for BR standards not being applicable, not exactly. Certainly not the tight standards of BR, but uniform accurate loads are the key and only one way to do that and that is by controlling all aspects of the sizing even in a factory chamber. Otherwise do what you want and go for it.

Why wouldn't anyone on THIS site in actuality not go the JLC custom honed FL size die for any gun IF they truly believe that it is a must to have uniform fireformed brass for even a factory chamber.

It only costs $26 for the body die and $80 for the conversion for a total less than $110 to have rounds that are really fitted to the chamber and 100% reliable which NS only will never be.

Anyway, that is my opinion having done both ways in both factory and BR rifles and been bit and seen too many people bit with the NS only route.

BH

Last edited by BountyHunter; 05-17-2010 at 10:05 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-17-2010, 11:52 AM
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Re: neck sizing or fll length sizing

The basis of my argument is that standard FL dies don't always match individual chambers. They often oversize (like the entire neck), and sometimes they counter bump with too much body(depending on chamber to die).
There are many posts here with one problem after another from FL sizing. Not so many from those who size only what they need.

Custom dies are a different matter, and not a basis for FL sizing that by far most reloaders do.
Still, my bump/NS dies from JLC do not size the web areas beyond springback. I run rational loads, and don't need it. So no, these dies are not FL sizing.

Could I be lucky enough to buy a standard FL die that works so well? Absolutely not..
The last I tried was with Tubbs very expensive 6XC "ferrari of die sets" to match my T2K.
Even Jim at JLC conceded it was the worst match he had seen(while extracting a jammed case for me). In the end, all but the gizzy in that set ended up in the trash can. Horrible, compared to my standards in sizing/seating.
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  #17  
Old 05-17-2010, 01:12 PM
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Re: neck sizing or fll length sizing

Do the neck bushings float free in your JLC converted dies, or with a 0.010" spitting gap surrounding the neck bushings? In other words, are the neck bushings positioned within the die snugly like the Redding neck bushing style dies?

I have a .280 RCBS 30 degree shoulder and couldn't find any body die in that caliber, so I purchased and shipped off an RCBS FL sizing die for customization. I also shipped fired cases for customization to match my rifle chamber and when the die came back, the neck bushing rattled around loose within the die. I tried using it that way and was getting excessive runout as the neck bushing was floating freely and evidently shifting from the concentric position as the necks were sized down. So I'm wondering if that floating neck bushing design is the standard with the JLC modified dies?

Anyhow, after getting the JLC modified RCBS die back and trying it out, I ended up purchasing a Redding S-style neck sizing die in .280 Ackley Improved with the 40 degree shoulder and using that for the neck and sidewall resizing. Then I use the JLC modified die in a second step without the neck bushings installed in order to bump the shoulders back. This two-step process yields pretty good results, but I had hoped the JLC modified RCBS die could be used as a one-step process. I also had to hone out the RCBS FL die because it was still oversizing the sidewalls of my casings excessively. So now the RCBS FL die is nothing more than a body die to bump the shoulder back after the Redding S-style die does the majority of the work.
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  #18  
Old 05-17-2010, 01:16 PM
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Re: neck sizing or fll length sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
The basis of my argument is that standard FL dies don't always match individual chambers. They often oversize (like the entire neck), and sometimes they counter bump with too much body(depending on chamber to die).
There are many posts here with one problem after another from FL sizing. Not so many from those who size only what they need.

.
Mike

Agree on that necks are often sized too much, that is why I recommend the bushing die or conversion as the go to die.

As to the "counter bump with too much body, not sure what you are referring to exactly.

if sizing the lower body, yes that can happen compared to optimal, but that will not lead to shoulder/case neck separation or other measurable negative accuracy effects in a "factory chamber and barrel". If talking shoulder bump, that is die adjustment and nothing else, which is the major problem people talk about.

as to all the posts on FL dies, 95% are due to improper adjustments!

I have more than several sets of die conversions from JLC and not one has experienced the issue you talk about not enough springback.

Plus if that is an issue, Jim should be able to see that right off when he measures them and tell you to by the small base body die from redding which would solve that problem. Plus that will not happen in a factory chamber as they tend to be on the large size if anything.

As to the basis that FL dies do not match, that same arguement applies for NS only. Absolutely no different other than using a NS bushing die being able to control the neck, which is only one part of the chamber and brass dimensions.

My point in reality is why try to buy a standard die (NS or FL) IF max accuracy is key even in a factory chamber. Go for a custom honed bushing die and control ALL aspects of the brasss. Not just the neck and it can be done for $100.

Beats trying to keep track of how many firings and sorting cases into 4 or more batches and running each loaded round thru the gun to see if it chambers.

BH
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  #19  
Old 05-18-2010, 08:50 PM
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Re: neck sizing or fll length sizing

Deciding whether to Neck Size (NK) or Full Length (FL) resize seems to be a big question for reloaders. However, you can learn a lot from the way benchrest shooters reload.

Shooters that neck size still need to occasionally bump their case shoulder back to ensure that their rounds will still chamber. Benchrest shooters want all their rounds to be 100% alike in every dimension. They know that handloads should fit without being able to "feel" a round chamber - not even a little bit.

That's why most benchrest shooters are using full length resizing dies. This allows them to make handloads that always fit perfectly. Reloading equipment and techniques evolve over time, and technology is always improving.

I believe that full length resizing is by far the best way to resize for most situations. When full length resizing is done accurately, it delivers the very best accuracy, improved case life, easier chambering and extraction. Your handloads fit your chamber with 100% reliability.


Accurate full length resizing means having - .001 to - .002 clearance at the shoulder (and no more). This requires "measuring" the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular rifle. Then you can set your FL resizing die to "accurately" bump your case shoulder just like benchrest shooters. Your FL die can also resize the neck while the case is completely supported (and aligned) inside one die, and in one operation. Case run-out is reduced, accuracy is improved, and your handloads will always chamber properly.

- Innovative
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  #20  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:58 AM
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Re: neck sizing or fll length sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3006savage View Post
I have tried both ways and have settled on neck sizing with Lee collet dies. Better groups, better brass life and simpler process. I have also noticed that primers are always struck dead center when I neck sized and they where inconsistant when I FL sized them. I think that helps get consistant primer ignition.
I like the Lee collet dies also, you can build a pretty accurate cartridge on a shoestring if you think things through and don't try to get too many uses out of your brass. I'm a hunter not a match shooter so my criteria will differ in some respects. With out all the right equipment and knowledge some of us have to sort it out on our own and heck that's where the fun is. Best wishes.
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