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neck size or full length size?????

 
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  #29  
Old 12-20-2009, 05:48 PM
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Re: neck size or full length size?????

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Originally Posted by 1357MAG View Post
I am glad to see that there is much to benefit from me reading this post. I am a new member here.
My father and I just had this conversation the other day. He had asked me why I wasn't neck sizing as I am only shooting my brass in one rifle? If anyone wants to give me some direction on making a decision here, I am all ears.
Thanks!
1 800 338-3220 ext. 208 will get you Mr. Lonnie Hummel. He is the chief engineer (Dies)at Hornady Manufacturing Co. in Grand Island Neb. He is the expert. He will give you everything you ever wanted to know and some things you wished you never knew. ( Bring the Doe Ray Me!) He is the "man" when it comes to dies, rifles etc. Extremely educated with no less than 5 college degrees and over 40 years of experience in the field. Oh....he's a pretty damn good shot too. Hope this helps. He is always willing to help guys out. He even helped a guy like me!

Last edited by john g duvall; 12-20-2009 at 05:49 PM. Reason: mis spelled words
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  #30  
Old 12-20-2009, 06:28 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
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Re: neck size or full length size?????

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1357MAG View Post
I am glad to see that there is much to benefit from me reading this post. I am a new member here.
My father and I just had this conversation the other day. He had asked me why I wasn't neck sizing as I am only shooting my brass in one rifle? If anyone wants to give me some direction on making a decision here, I am all ears.
Thanks!
I think just about everything has been covered from different angles. Anything else you want to know?
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  #31  
Old 12-20-2009, 10:29 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 95
Re: neck size or full length size?????

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Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
I think just about everything has been covered from different angles. Anything else you want to know?
Actually there is. If I decide to neck size only, will I periodically have to full length size as well? Thanks in advance MR.
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  #32  
Old 12-20-2009, 10:32 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 95
Re: neck size or full length size?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by john g duvall View Post
1 800 338-3220 ext. 208 will get you Mr. Lonnie Hummel. He is the chief engineer (Dies)at Hornady Manufacturing Co. in Grand Island Neb. He is the expert. He will give you everything you ever wanted to know and some things you wished you never knew. ( Bring the Doe Ray Me!) He is the "man" when it comes to dies, rifles etc. Extremely educated with no less than 5 college degrees and over 40 years of experience in the field. Oh....he's a pretty damn good shot too. Hope this helps. He is always willing to help guys out. He even helped a guy like me!
Thanks John. I have full faith in Hornady staff. I own some of "team red's" reloading quipment, and it says alot about their company as a whole.
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  #33  
Old 12-20-2009, 11:14 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Winder, Ga.
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Re: neck size or full length size?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1357MAG View Post
Thanks John. I have full faith in Hornady staff. I own some of "team red's" reloading quipment, and it says alot about their company as a whole.

Roger that. Bravo two...out
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  #34  
Old 12-20-2009, 11:45 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
Posts: 5,954
Re: neck size or full length size?????

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1357MAG View Post
Actually there is. If I decide to neck size only, will I periodically have to full length size as well? Thanks in advance MR.
In most cases, yes. Someone posted that they neck size only until the brass will no longer chamber and throw it out and start over. that seems a little wasteful to me and why not FL size it before throwing it out anyway. Same cartridges can get a lot of neck sizes before needing a body or FL size. Some of my 300 WSM brass is on its 5th neck only cycle. My 300 RUM brass on the other hand gets too tight after only 1 or 2 firings.

But eventually the shoulder and body will need to be bumped and sized so the case will fir the chamber. I used to think that neck sizing was the best way because you ended up with a case that was fire formed to the chamber. But the doesn't necessarily help align your bullet to the bore which is what you're after. A tight neck chamber and snug fiitng concentric neck accomplish that. And that's why a lot of reloaders only parial neck size, so they get a fired formed collar on the neck to center the bullet. A case body with a little play (body or FL sized) gives the neck collar room to align in the chamber. And another advantage to Body/FL sizing is you get the same product for each reloading and reloading Is all about consistancy.

The most important thing you can for quality hand loads is to use a competiton seater.
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  #35  
Old 12-21-2009, 07:53 AM
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Posts: 2,114
Re: neck size or full length size?????

There's a popular belief that tight chamber necks are the best way to align the bullet with the bore. I don't believe that. Neither do others who use standard SAAMI chambers and properly full length size rimless bottleneck cases producing accuracy equalling and often exceeding what the "tight neck" folks get. Consider how a rimless bottleneck full length sized case with headspace 2/1000ths shorter than the chamber fits that chamber when the round's fired.

When the bolt's closed on the round and it has a plunger-style ejector pushing against the case head, that pushes the round as far forward in the chamber as possible. The round is now pressed into the chamber shoulder that has the same angle as the case shoulder. Which perfectly centers the round's front end in the chamber. Bolts with a Mauser style external ejector will close on the round and varying amounts of clearance between case head and bolt face as well as case and chamber shoulder will happen, but it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, at the back end of the case, the extractor's pushing the case sideways until it bears against the chamber wall. How far off center the case axis is from the chamber axis at the back end depends on the difference in diameters of the case and chamber, but it's only a couple thousandths regardless of how the fired case was resized.

Along comes the firing pin and strikes the primer. With all that force smacking the case, it's going to move foward hard against the chamber shoulder. As both case and shoulder angles are the same, the case shoulder will perfectly center itself at the front end of the chamber. It doesn't make any difference how much clearance there is between the case and chamber neck. If the case neck's off center to the case shoulder, it'll be off center when the round fires. And all that force from the firing pin also sets the case shoulder back a few thousandths; how much depends on the area of the shoulder and its angle as well as how smooth the two surfaces are. And the back end of the case may well move a bit sideways from that firing pin's impact, too.

Measure a primed case's headspace, chamber and pop that empty primed case, then measure its headspace to see how far the shoulder was set back. One can load several cartridges with each one a grain more less than max, the shoot them measuring fired case headspace after each shot. When the charge gets down to around 10% less than max, the cases will be shorter in headspace and their primers will protrude a bit indicating pressure wasn't high enough to stretch the case body back to where the head stops against the bolt face. Reducing the charge further results in the primer protruding even more. This usually proves to people that the case's front end gets centered in the chamber when it's fired and the case shoulder gets set back. But those cases may not have their shoulders moved forward far enough from full length sizing so they should be scrapped.

All of which means all rimless bottleneck cases end up a bit crooked in the chamber when the bolt's closed and the round's fired. Their back end's pressed sideways against the chamber wall but their front end's perfectly centered where it counts. Any difference in the angle between full length and neck only sized cases is insigificant. If one's ever measured the difference in bolt head positioning on a chambered round that's partially neck sized and the bolt binds a bit when closed, they might want to compare that to where the bolt head ends up on a chambered, full length sized case that has a couple thousandths headspace clearance. Especially if the bolt face hasn't been squared with the barrel thread axis. Bolt heads need to be at the same place for each shot for best accuracy.

Using gelded full length sizing dies (those without balls) to set a fired rimless bottleneck case shoulder back no more than 2/1000ths has been used to reload .308 Win. cases over 50 times; without annealing. Body diameters need be reduced only 2 to 3 thousandths. Accuracy has exceeded what benchrest records from neck sized cases are with this case so sized. Sierra Bullets' been using this process since the early 1950's for their rimless bottleneck cases used to test their bullets for accuracy. They don't weigh charges, either, just meter 'em direct into cases. Their best 30 caliber match bullets have shot into the ones (under 2/10ths MOA) from proper full length sized cases.

Regarding bullet seating, my full length sized bottleneck cases, both rimless and belted, full length sized with gelded dies end up with bullets seated with standard seating dies (such as the one that comes with a set of full length dies) just as straight as four different makes of competition dies. Bullets align themselves with case necks. If the neck axis ain't aligned with the body axis, no seater will put bullets straight in those cases.

Last edited by Bart B; 12-21-2009 at 07:59 AM.
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