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More reloading issues

 
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:47 AM
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Location: greenwood, IN
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Re: More reloading issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip View Post
Thanks for the input Gary...as usual. I tend to shoot from the hip on shop questions.

In lieu of any busing, a thread mike would work or double ball ends on the spindle and anvil (on a mike0.
I was brought up in the school of thought that used gauge lines to setup deminsions of parts with tapers and even angles. I would usually just CAD them out and setup a gauge line deminsion from there. A good CAD system will get you numbers in the .0001" range without any serious problems, and this can be taken down to arc seconds if you wanta go nuts

One of the major problems with tapers and angles is that virtually all pieces of equipment these days uses a fanuc control. This controll is known to have a floating point decimal error built into it. Now you can work this down to where the error don't mean squat. Then you add into the equation that the machine doing the work will have a little built in error, and you now know why parts don't perfectly fit. It's virtually a lost art in using a master to make duplicates off of when it comes to long tapers, and I seriously dount there are twelve people in the firearms business that can do it right. We've literally lost that piece of "black art", and the folks can are close to being dead. Thus in this day and age we're learning to use the term "close enough." You make a die body with .0005" error in the taper and maybe .00075" in the shoulder concentricity, then you size a case and put it in a chamber that is within .0015". Now you have the miss match we've been cussing (probably even worse). But on the otherhand we probably couldn't afford anything that was close to perfect as well.
gary
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:05 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 3,461
Re: More reloading issues

Jordan...

It all depends on who you talk to, I guess. I've had nothing but positive encounters with Savage as far as customer service is concerned.

Keep in mind that they are in upper New York state and those people can come across as a bit short, when, in fact, they aren't. Just how they are, it's normal there....... My wife is from there and it took me a bit to get 'acclimated' to her demeanor........

Try calling Kimber sometime if you really want a taste of New York. Kimber is in the city and those folks come across really short...

My wife can put the 'F' word in a sentence 4 times and make it gramatically correct.........

Don't bother me anymore. I just accept it for what it is and go on.
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  #38  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:21 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South West Montana
Posts: 270
Re: More reloading issues

Like I said maybe he was having a bad day....heck my wife is from Butte, Montana you wanna talk f-bombs and the english language ha ha... anyways all is good I am gonna end up with a custom which is probably the route I should have taken to begin with

Jordan
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  #39  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:54 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
Re: More reloading issues

Well I fired some Lapua brass today and the same problems are still there. The rifle is a month old and its now on its way to the gunsmith. I am not a happy camper. I explained to the smith what the problem is and he said send it in.
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  #40  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:00 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
Re: More reloading issues

dino... let us know what he tells you. Sorry about the problem. Hopefully he'll straighten it out for you.

since the Lapua cases are doing the same thing... I have a thought that you might share with the 'smith, for him to check out. Be sure to take some fired cases to the 'smith as well.

If your scope base screw is too long in the chamber area, it's pressing against the bolt *slightly*... and this would mis-align the bolt just slightly... with new brass (smaller base) the bolt can "duck" under the long screw (we're talking a thousandth of an inch of clearance or so, the tolerance is there...)... With fired cases, the bolt is held up against the screw, higher, with no wiggle room at all.

By turning the case (re-indexing it), and re-inserting it, you're not lining up it's egg shape with an egg shaped chamber, but you're simply finding an extra thousandth of clearance, just by happenstance, either on the bolt lug or in the fit of the case head to the bolt (the rims are not perfect circles, they'll be out a thousandth or two one way or the other)...

If your chamber was egg shaped you'd see rub marks on opposing sides of the case, but you're seeing them only on one side, as if the brass is being held off axis with the chamber... a bolt that was being pushed down by a base screw that was too long might do this.

Of course you might get told any number of things by the 'smith, and depending on his credibility they may or may not be true. Hopefully he's a straight shooter. If you haven't shipped the rifle yet maybe you should remove the scope base screw over the bolt lug area and see if it's gnarled up on the end, and see if there might be a corresponding wear mark on the bolt in that area...

Just a thought.

Dan
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  #41  
Old 05-04-2012, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 3,461
Re: More reloading issues

Dan...Mr. Green..

That appears to be an ongoing issue with the EGW base/rail and an issue I had and corrected prior to ever firing the rifle because I pulled the base beforehand and checked not only the base to receiver relationship, but the torque of the mounting screws in relationship to the receiver itself. Installing the base to the receiver and torquing the base screws down to 40 inch pounds, I found the base screws were slightly proud to the chamber area.

I used a plug gage - 0.005 to the inside chamber bore diameter and it hung on the first screw BTW. You could do it handily with the bolt pulled and a good flashlight as well. I can't fault Savage for this because the rail as well as the muzzle brake are outsourced to EGW and I'm presuming that the screws are supplied by EGW with the bases as well.

It's an easy fix and it precludes the need to check the torque value of the base mounting screws and insure they are all evenly torqued (as a note, my front screw was loose at the outset).

A little filing of the screw shank (or careful use of the bench grinder wheel and your fingers....) removes enough metal so the screw(s) aren't proud in the receiver chamber. Of course I retoequed the screws and applied a dab of threadlocker to the threads.

There has been some talk on here and other forums about the base relationship to the receiver top. I took a steel round, the same diameter as the receiver od and referenced the underside of the rail to it and found no high spots on the inderside (of the rail) so when I remounted the rail to the receiver, no bedding was necessary, just rail to receiver and threadlocker. That may or may not be the case with all rails and receivers but mine was fine....
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  #42  
Old 05-04-2012, 09:56 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
Re: More reloading issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by green 788 View Post
dino... let us know what he tells you. Sorry about the problem. Hopefully he'll straighten it out for you.

since the Lapua cases are doing the same thing... I have a thought that you might share with the 'smith, for him to check out. Be sure to take some fired cases to the 'smith as well.

If your scope base screw is too long in the chamber area, it's pressing against the bolt *slightly*... and this would mis-align the bolt just slightly... with new brass (smaller base) the bolt can "duck" under the long screw (we're talking a thousandth of an inch of clearance or so, the tolerance is there...)... With fired cases, the bolt is held up against the screw, higher, with no wiggle room at all.

By turning the case (re-indexing it), and re-inserting it, you're not lining up it's egg shape with an egg shaped chamber, but you're simply finding an extra thousandth of clearance, just by happenstance, either on the bolt lug or in the fit of the case head to the bolt (the rims are not perfect circles, they'll be out a thousandth or two one way or the other)...

If your chamber was egg shaped you'd see rub marks on opposing sides of the case, but you're seeing them only on one side, as if the brass is being held off axis with the chamber... a bolt that was being pushed down by a base screw that was too long might do this.

Of course you might get told any number of things by the 'smith, and depending on his credibility they may or may not be true. Hopefully he's a straight shooter. If you haven't shipped the rifle yet maybe you should remove the scope base screw over the bolt lug area and see if it's gnarled up on the end, and see if there might be a corresponding wear mark on the bolt in that area...

Just a thought.

Dan
I wish you had posted this sooner, I was on my way to the post office"to send to the smith" with my packaged up rifle when I realized the office was closed. I received a call from work to help out so I took it. while sitting around my computer I googled my troubles again and found a similar issue a fellow member was having. He mentioned the front rail screw may be touching the bolt face somehow, so I took the packaging off the rifle and took a look at that. I removed the bolt and noticed some marks on it where one of the front rail screws may be contacting it if the screw was to long so I backed off on the screw and low and behold " every piece of fired brass would chamber and extract easy.
I would like to thank everyone who tried to help me with this one, I will find a way to shorten the screw without ruining it and make things right. Once again thanks to everyone,"I cant believe it was a stupid little screw causing so much grief.
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