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MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

 
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2013, 11:34 PM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

5.56 FMJs do more damage than larger FMJs (to a point) at just about any reasonable distance (repeated tests have shown this, even as far back as the 6mm Lee Navy days). UNLESS you spin them up (stabilize them) at ungodly RPMs by firing them out of a fast twist barrel.

At an appropriate twist rate of something like 1-14 or 1-15, a 5.56 FMJ round will tumble wildly in flesh. At 1-7, it will just pencil through most of the time. Of course, Uncle Sam spins those little babies up to twice the RPMs they need to stabilize them, and then doesn't listen when the troops crab about them not doing any damage.

Back in the Vietnam days, the M16 prototypes gained a reputation as unholy killing machines. Later hindsight showed that the first prototypes (provided to special forces) were 1-17 to 1-20 twist barrels, because Armalite was unable to produce the specified twist rate, and they were basically firing bullets that tumbled straight out of the barrel. Of course at the ranges special forces usually operate, nobody noticed that accuracy over any distance would have been crap.

I still say ditch the Hague Conventions (written by a bunch of diplomatic pantywetters) and use expanding bullets when appropriate (IE when armor piercing is not necessary).
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  #16  
Old 09-29-2013, 11:59 PM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastard TwoTwo View Post
A .30-Cal bullet is problematic, at best; First and foremost, d#mned things are HEAVY- won't catch me carrying more than 200-250 rounds in that caliber. My average loadout as a team leader was 600 rounds of 5.56 in Iraq in '06, and you better bet I would use nearly every mag in a firefight. I never carried more than 100 rounds of 7.62NATO, and it felt about the same as 150-200 rounds of 5.56; 7.62x39 is nearly as bad, and metal AK mags can double as anchors when loaded. So I just see that as less ammo in hand, and therefore less potential to kill.

Gary, I think your percentages are a little dated. While those numbers are certainly true for WWI, WWII, and probably also Vietnam, in Iraq, we hardly ever used artillery and CAS, primarily because the country has a VERY dense urban population throughout most of the populated areas, and we really didn't want collateral damage. Every once in awhile, Alibaba would do something stupid out in the sticks, and we could blast him with a 2000-pounder, but those instances only accounted for about 1/4 of our kills. We had to get our hands dirty- a LOT.

So door-kicking became our bread-and-butter. I will admit that with a 5.56NATO M4, I had to "ride my kills;" meaning that I often had to dump half a mag or more into a body to get it good'n'dead. Forget what you see in COD- when the other guy is 10-15ft away from you (like in a bedroom), you don't just shoot him once and call it a day, especially when he's shooting back, and doubly especially when he's hopped up on heroine or meth that he cooked up in what used to be a hospital. The obvious exception to this is .458SOCOM or .50Beowulf. Hit him with one of those from 10 feet away, he won't want to play anymore.

The 6.8 is a nifty caliber for use inside a house. Even suppressed, it generally keeps a higher velocity and hits harder than a 5.56 at less than 10m. Downside is when you step into the street, and need to nail some idiot with an RPD a few blocks away. So then you have 6.5, which is great for distance, but not necessarily a cartridge that I, personally, would want for CQB. The plain fact is that the 5.56 is the lesser evil for right now; poorer performance than 6.8 at close range, poorer performance than 6.5 at distance, but ironically perfect for those 200m-300m shots.

Someday, somebody will invent a super-awesome round that hits hard at close range, AND at 600m. I just hope it's in my lifetime.
my data is from two different papers submitted by the Pentagon, and the U.S. Army War College. Their data was as current as five years ago, but takes in all combat arenas. The same ratios have been confirmed by Russia, Germany, UK, and a few others. There's not much new on this planet when it comes to killing people when you think about it.

By the way I've been involved in house to house stuff more than once or twice. The best thing since sliced bread was the old M79 buck shot round, but it was also it's down fall as it was a single shot weapon.. A grease gun or a Thompson submachine gun were probably just as good, but better due to their magazine content.

I count 17 combat assaults in my book, even though a few others say it was more. A standard load out for a five or six man team was three belts of 7.62x51 on everyman, but the radio man. I carried an extra barrel, and another guy carried the other. The others carried batteries. I also had a bagged M16 with twenty one mags wrapped around it. Everybody hauled the twenty one mag load or more. I also had about ten or twelve M79 HE rounds in my lower left pants pocket. Randy carried about three dozen himself. Also carried a 1911a1 with four mags. Two quarts of water, and three meals. Two extra pairs of socks, and a towl. In my lower right hand pocket were two pairs of hemostats, morphine, a bag of bandages, and a piece of surgical tubing. I've gotten down to a belt and a half a couple times, and down to two full mags several other times. When we went in heavy, we all carried four or five belts, and pulled a drag bag off the chopper. That's enough M60 ammo to get you by a couple hours, or about three late night probs. Roughly 110lb. a man. Two out of three times I rolled out the door we were alone, as the infantry never got the word till we were there. Two or three times they dropped us off in the wrong location, and we didn't know where we were exactly. Then you gotta shoot several WP bursts to plot vectors to figure out your location. Now it's done via GPS!

The drag bag had six meals and four quarts of water. Two cases of 5.56 loaded in M16 mags. Another two or three loose 7.62 belts. Plus hand held flares and more smoke grenades and two more batteries. If there was room we packed in several Claymores as well. The idea of the drag bag came after about the 5th trip, and was simply kicked out by the door gunner as the last guy left the left side of the chopper.

gary
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  #17  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:13 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
my data is from two different papers submitted by the Pentagon, and the U.S. Army War College. Their data was as current as five years ago, but takes in all combat arenas. The same ratios have been confirmed by Russia, Germany, UK, and a few others. There's not much new on this planet when it comes to killing people when you think about it.
AHHHHH.... See, I can only really testify to what *I* saw, over 3-years (over back-to-back deployments) in North/Central Iraq. And, unfortunately, as I said, that area is EXTREMELY dense in terms of urban population, which meant we couldn't just go droppin' 155's everywhere we went. God we wished we could have... but that's another story.

I humped roughly 100-120lbs, depending on what we were doing; unfortunately, almost half that weight was body armor and water. We did ditch the crappy IBA's for plate carriers a couple months into my first deployment, but didn't ordinarily add more 'boom,' unless we were going out for more than 3 days at a shot, or going someplace like Baqubah (which was the wild f'ng west back in '06).

Occasionally, I carried an extra 100-round belt of 7.62NATO, when I had a M240B MMG team attached to my rifle team, and for a few weeks I did moonlight as a Designated Marksman, and carried 5x 20rnd mags for an SR-25. Either way, not a fan of the extra weight vs the round limit. And I WAS kinda concerned for those of us on this thread who've never been to combat, and may not have understood the concept of combat shooting (obviously not applying to you, gary).

I hate talking to teenagers who play military-themed video games. morons.

WE STILL HAVE THE BUCKSHOT ROUND- IT'S JUST USED IN THE M203 NOW

CATFUR- you'd be surprised how often body armor shows up on the 21st century battlefield, and NOT just on Coalition Forces.... Haj had it more often than he didn't; usually Russian or East German surplus, but it still worked. The Iranians produce their own, which is better than the old Soviet stuff, and YES, despite what you heard on the news, IRGC and Al-Quds were actively operating in Eastern Iraq, and they were not on our side.
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  #18  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:24 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Oh, and before I forget- the current generation of the AR platform in service with the US Military doesn't use a 1/7 twist barrel; we now use either a 1/9 (standard M16A4 or M4A2/3) or a 1/10 (SOPMOD Mk12 Mod 0).

Sure, it's not a 1/12 or 1/14, which would tumble the round a lot, BUT, it's pretty accurate out at 500m, and will penetrate body armor without a hiccup.
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  #19  
Old 09-30-2013, 11:47 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastard TwoTwo View Post
AHHHHH.... See, I can only really testify to what *I* saw, over 3-years (over back-to-back deployments) in North/Central Iraq. And, unfortunately, as I said, that area is EXTREMELY dense in terms of urban population, which meant we couldn't just go droppin' 155's everywhere we went. God we wished we could have... but that's another story.

I humped roughly 100-120lbs, depending on what we were doing; unfortunately, almost half that weight was body armor and water. We did ditch the crappy IBA's for plate carriers a couple months into my first deployment, but didn't ordinarily add more 'boom,' unless we were going out for more than 3 days at a shot, or going someplace like Baqubah (which was the wild f'ng west back in '06).

Occasionally, I carried an extra 100-round belt of 7.62NATO, when I had a M240B MMG team attached to my rifle team, and for a few weeks I did moonlight as a Designated Marksman, and carried 5x 20rnd mags for an SR-25. Either way, not a fan of the extra weight vs the round limit. And I WAS kinda concerned for those of us on this thread who've never been to combat, and may not have understood the concept of combat shooting (obviously not applying to you, gary).

I hate talking to teenagers who play military-themed video games. morons.

WE STILL HAVE THE BUCKSHOT ROUND- IT'S JUST USED IN THE M203 NOW

CATFUR- you'd be surprised how often body armor shows up on the 21st century battlefield, and NOT just on Coalition Forces.... Haj had it more often than he didn't; usually Russian or East German surplus, but it still worked. The Iranians produce their own, which is better than the old Soviet stuff, and YES, despite what you heard on the news, IRGC and Al-Quds were actively operating in Eastern Iraq, and they were not on our side.
Actually I was not in an infantry outfit, but was part of the first shirts recon team that was tasked with the job of scouting out mountain tops for arty deployments. Been nice if we were attached to an infantry brigade, but we were independent, and operated with everybody. The grand scheme of the advance party is to scout the area out, plus make sure it can be used. Sometimes we were there two hours without anything happening. When that happened (and the hill was usable) we would start the move. About three hours later we were shooting.

When I hit country, and had got settled in after a couple weeks a guy walked up to and put an M60 in my hands (this would be right around 1/1/68), three new barrels, two complete cleaning kits with tools, a case of LSA, a bag full of springs and other spare parts, and a box of Home Made cigars. Patted me on the ass and said "your new, and I'm outta here!" I carried that 28lb. hog all thru Tet, and finally got rid of it in late April. While this was going on the first shirt had all of us newbies got and zero in our rifles (M16's), and of course I had to also shoot the hog. We found that I shot the hog better than anybody did in the company (bad sign there alone), but still was unfamiliar with it. He had a couple guys school me on it everyday. I learned to virtually dismantle it piece by piece, and practiced changing hot barrels so often that I could do it blind folded. He also hooked up a couple guys from the 198th infantry with me to teach me how to use the gun instead of just shooting it. In April I figured I was done with it, but that's when we started to move into ops after Tet. We we did an OP, I was promptly handed that same hog again. Around the first of May I did my first insertion out by Hau Duc. Was scared to death, but wasn't all that bad. After three days or so we were probed, and rocketed. Then it was a daily thing. They must have ran out of mortar rounds after two long weeks of the stuff, so I went out on the Laotian border. Rough place! That was my first meeting with S.F., and saw SOG and a lot of LRRP's roll thru that little place (it was somekind of a SF forward detachment that took orders directly from a C-Team). We eventually lost the mountain top due to lack of warm bodies. Must have shot six thousand rounds of 7.62 ball myself. Was up there about a month, and was probed nightly. Don't remember rockets, but we caught at least a hundred 82mm rounds everyday. Then it was a leap frog affair up and down the border for another sixty days. Finally reunited with the rest of the guys to get healthy again (2/3rds of us had walking pneumonia, and there were always eight or ten guys recovering from wounds). They just were not very nice out there! Been close enough to look into the Ashau Valley, and maybe twenty minutes north of Kam Duc. The next crazy stunt for me was reopening the Tam Key Road ( nobody had been on it for 18 months). After about three klicks I decided I was better off on foot, and walked! After another five klicks I climbed on the back of an ACAV, and rode with them into the hook. Then I walked again. The ACAV ran over a 155mm command detonated mine! (just had a real bad feeling about that place). Got into A102 about nine that night in a hard rain (rode the last five or six miles on the top of an M48). I was exhausted. The tracks spent the night, and left at first light. Woke to discover I was sitting about 2,000 yards below this huge mastiff. That was the Hiep Duc Ridge Line. A new adventure that just wouldn't go away quietly. The north end was as hot as the Ashau, and was glad we were at the south end. Later the south end would evolve into one of the hottest spots RVN had ever seen. That place became my last base camp that we operated out of, and was also the most interesting.

All of my 15 months wasn't bad, and actually some of it was fun. I shook Bob Hope's hand twice and met him a third time. (Bob Hope is my all time hero). But only saw the show once! Been drunk with Marines, Army, and even some Navy guys. Made a zillion friends, and bagged a few of them. I wouldn't trade it for anything, but also wouldn't think about doing it again.
glt
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  #20  
Old 09-30-2013, 08:45 PM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastard TwoTwo View Post
Oh, and before I forget- the current generation of the AR platform in service with the US Military doesn't use a 1/7 twist barrel; we now use either a 1/9 (standard M16A4 or M4A2/3) or a 1/10 (SOPMOD Mk12 Mod 0).

Sure, it's not a 1/12 or 1/14, which would tumble the round a lot, BUT, it's pretty accurate out at 500m, and will penetrate body armor without a hiccup.
Where are you stationed?
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  #21  
Old 10-01-2013, 09:47 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastard TwoTwo View Post
Oh, and before I forget- the current generation of the AR platform in service with the US Military doesn't use a 1/7 twist barrel; we now use either a 1/9 (standard M16A4 or M4A2/3) or a 1/10 (SOPMOD Mk12 Mod 0).

Sure, it's not a 1/12 or 1/14, which would tumble the round a lot, BUT, it's pretty accurate out at 500m, and will penetrate body armor without a hiccup.
And I forgot to "welcome you home brother!"

So, knowing that nobody else probably did; please allow me to welcome you home
gary
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