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MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

 
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2013, 01:00 PM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaska View Post
They already switched the Army went to M855A1 bronze tip and the Marine corp Mk 318 round

After OIF 2 even good shots with M855 green tip it was like using a solid steel bullet on deer no expansion no shock

SFC retired
I know they did but have you actually seen any? I haven't, all reports from friends currently in theater are they have never seen any of either round. M885 was not designed to expand, it was designed to penetrate 3mm or steel. Expansion has never been allowed per the hague. Big Army walks a fine line, SOCOM has more latitude as their JAG stated, that there is no such thing as "unreasonable suffering" when you are trying to kill someone, thus we see them issuing hollow points and hinting bullets.

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2013, 11:28 PM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by ICANHITHIMMAN View Post
I know they did but have you actually seen any? I haven't, all reports from friends currently in theater are they have never seen any of either round. M885 was not designed to expand, it was designed to penetrate 3mm or steel. Expansion has never been allowed per the hague. Big Army walks a fine line, SOCOM has more latitude as their JAG stated, that there is no such thing as "unreasonable suffering" when you are trying to kill someone, thus we see them issuing hollow points and hinting bullets.

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
In my first true venture into close order combat, I lost my partner to a 7.62x39 round (actually four of them). They were fired right thru a 3/4" thick floor in a bunker used as a listening post (LP) from about five feet away. I was on the roof, and they must not have known I was up there. I had a bag of grenades and an M16 rifle. The rifle was virtually useless, and I simply rolled about six or eight grenades off the roof top. Then sprayed about three mags into the pitch black darkness. When Light finally came I came down off the roof to find him D.O.A., and four bodies laying to the right. One was still breathing, and the First Sargent was so mad that he gave him a sedative with 230 grain hardball. That's what is known as a clean humane kill in the combat zone. I put two layers of clay filled sandbags on the floor plus stacked 5.56 and 7.62x51. Sure enough they showed up at about one in the morning again. The M60 was useless as they were too close, so I sprayed a full mag that triggered a series of four duce illumination rounds. Then shot five with an M16. They were very dead by five in the morning. Humane? Well they were not shooting at me anymore! Next night I was back on the roof, but with an additional M60. Three grenades, and half a belt brought dead silence in about one minute. The guy below froze while the third guy was asleep. One had a sucking chest wound, and I listened to him for about three or four minutes out there someplace. The other four got away. We tracked the blood trails at about six in the morning. Found two about a hundred yards out. Two more about three hundred yards. All had bad chest hits. One round busted thru an ammo vest, and still didn't do it's humane kill (sic). There is no such thing 50% of the time, and it's almost amusing that anyone would think so. Top had the LP blown up at the end of the week so no other hapless fool would ever be stuck out there again. That was humane!! What you read here is a glossed over account of seven days of my life in February 1968, and there's not much to call it humane.
gary
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  #10  
Old 09-22-2013, 12:20 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

My personal opinion is that the US should dump the Hague convention like a hot potatoe, it's a steaming pile of dung cooked up by a bunch of diplomats, who settled on a ban on expanding bullets when they couldn't get what they really wanted, which was a ban on weapons period (yeah, right).

Nevertheless, it remains the law, and these MK 318 sure sound like they are, ahem, not quite kosher.

Of course, we haven't been in a war with a Hague signatory since who knows when, so we ought to be using Partitions on all the various scum, not playing "tiptoe down the line."
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  #11  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:47 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfur View Post
My personal opinion is that the US should dump the Hague convention like a hot potatoe, it's a steaming pile of dung cooked up by a bunch of diplomats, who settled on a ban on expanding bullets when they couldn't get what they really wanted, which was a ban on weapons period (yeah, right).

Nevertheless, it remains the law, and these MK 318 sure sound like they are, ahem, not quite kosher.

Of course, we haven't been in a war with a Hague signatory since who knows when, so we ought to be using Partitions on all the various scum, not playing "tiptoe down the line."
I 100% agree and have never personally understood why big army must conform to the hague in our current fight. I guess it just easier to issue what we have to the masses I suppose, than to go threw the entire testing,contract and purchase who ha.
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  #12  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:48 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
In my first true venture into close order combat, I lost my partner to a 7.62x39 round (actually four of them). They were fired right thru a 3/4" thick floor in a bunker used as a listening post (LP) from about five feet away. I was on the roof, and they must not have known I was up there. I had a bag of grenades and an M16 rifle. The rifle was virtually useless, and I simply rolled about six or eight grenades off the roof top. Then sprayed about three mags into the pitch black darkness. When Light finally came I came down off the roof to find him D.O.A., and four bodies laying to the right. One was still breathing, and the First Sargent was so mad that he gave him a sedative with 230 grain hardball. That's what is known as a clean humane kill in the combat zone. I put two layers of clay filled sandbags on the floor plus stacked 5.56 and 7.62x51. Sure enough they showed up at about one in the morning again. The M60 was useless as they were too close, so I sprayed a full mag that triggered a series of four duce illumination rounds. Then shot five with an M16. They were very dead by five in the morning. Humane? Well they were not shooting at me anymore! Next night I was back on the roof, but with an additional M60. Three grenades, and half a belt brought dead silence in about one minute. The guy below froze while the third guy was asleep. One had a sucking chest wound, and I listened to him for about three or four minutes out there someplace. The other four got away. We tracked the blood trails at about six in the morning. Found two about a hundred yards out. Two more about three hundred yards. All had bad chest hits. One round busted thru an ammo vest, and still didn't do it's humane kill (sic). There is no such thing 50% of the time, and it's almost amusing that anyone would think so. Top had the LP blown up at the end of the week so no other hapless fool would ever be stuck out there again. That was humane!! What you read here is a glossed over account of seven days of my life in February 1968, and there's not much to call it humane.
gary
Thanks for sharing brother
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  #13  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfur View Post
My personal opinion is that the US should dump the Hague convention like a hot potatoe, it's a steaming pile of dung cooked up by a bunch of diplomats, who settled on a ban on expanding bullets when they couldn't get what they really wanted, which was a ban on weapons period (yeah, right).

Nevertheless, it remains the law, and these MK 318 sure sound like they are, ahem, not quite kosher.

Of course, we haven't been in a war with a Hague signatory since who knows when, so we ought to be using Partitions on all the various scum, not playing "tiptoe down the line."
.

Think of warfare is two completely different categories, that really involve two different sets of rules.

* first we have conventional warfare. Like WWII. Both sides sorta play by the rules (even though they didn't in WWII).

* Then we have unconventional warfare, and neither side plays by any set of rules. But that ain't so! One side seems to always abide by the rules while the other never does. It's kind of stupid to think you'd you'd go into a fight with one hand tied behind your back. But that's what happens most of the time. This all started out in Korea, and seriously expanded in Vietnam. The rest of the new players are simply following the Vietnamese play book. Some of it's their fault, and much of it is our fault for even allowing it to take place. Had we fought the game like they did, they'd have capitulated very fast. But remember we're nice folks and don't bring ourselves down to that level.

On the battlefield, 85% of all combat deaths are from artillery. Nothing new as we learned about that in 1917. Ten percent are from bombing and other forms of an airstrike. The next five percent are gunshots, anti personnel mines, disease, and even the bayonet. You take the last five percent, and then cull out all the gunshot KIA's. Almost 90% are under 125 yards! 85% are under 75 yards. Around 50% fall in to the under 50 yard category. I think the figure is almost 40% for under sixty feet! At the long distance of 150 yards, just how good of a bullet is needed? A soft tip is not so hot with body armor, but still hands off a lot energy on impact. A hard tip may or may not penetrate body armor (I don't want to test it).

It would have appeared to me that the 6.8 round was a critical step in the correct direction, but still not good enough in my book. The problem was that the AR platform is a little too short to make something much more serious. Stretch it .250", and maybe widen it .200", and you got a different beast. The old .300 Savage case made into a 1.8" length with a shoulder length of about 1.53" would have been the ticket. Use bullets in the 135 grain class, and an optional 150 grain bullet. Neck it down to 7mm, or keep it at 30 caliber. Will it bust a windshield? You bet it will! Is it leagle? Yep it is! Do you need that much desired triple tap like the 5.56 does. No! What you'll have is near .308 ballistics with a shorter case. In other words the bullet impacts in the kill zone all the way out to 300 yards without much if any holdover. Or about 1000ft.lb. at 300 yards and 750 at 400 yards. Would also make a great light machinegun round due to it's case length alone! The 7mm version would be even more impressive with 1360 ft. lb of energy at 300 yards using a 139 grain bullet at 2700 fps. Shoots flat enough tp aim for the middle of the head and impact from the base of the sternum upwards.
gary
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  #14  
Old 09-29-2013, 08:23 PM
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Re: MK 318 ammo Info 5.56

A .30-Cal bullet is problematic, at best; First and foremost, d#mned things are HEAVY- won't catch me carrying more than 200-250 rounds in that caliber. My average loadout as a team leader was 600 rounds of 5.56 in Iraq in '06, and you better bet I would use nearly every mag in a firefight. I never carried more than 100 rounds of 7.62NATO, and it felt about the same as 150-200 rounds of 5.56; 7.62x39 is nearly as bad, and metal AK mags can double as anchors when loaded. So I just see that as less ammo in hand, and therefore less potential to kill.

Gary, I think your percentages are a little dated. While those numbers are certainly true for WWI, WWII, and probably also Vietnam, in Iraq, we hardly ever used artillery and CAS, primarily because the country has a VERY dense urban population throughout most of the populated areas, and we really didn't want collateral damage. Every once in awhile, Alibaba would do something stupid out in the sticks, and we could blast him with a 2000-pounder, but those instances only accounted for about 1/4 of our kills. We had to get our hands dirty- a LOT.

So door-kicking became our bread-and-butter. I will admit that with a 5.56NATO M4, I had to "ride my kills;" meaning that I often had to dump half a mag or more into a body to get it good'n'dead. Forget what you see in COD- when the other guy is 10-15ft away from you (like in a bedroom), you don't just shoot him once and call it a day, especially when he's shooting back, and doubly especially when he's hopped up on heroine or meth that he cooked up in what used to be a hospital. The obvious exception to this is .458SOCOM or .50Beowulf. Hit him with one of those from 10 feet away, he won't want to play anymore.

The 6.8 is a nifty caliber for use inside a house. Even suppressed, it generally keeps a higher velocity and hits harder than a 5.56 at less than 10m. Downside is when you step into the street, and need to nail some idiot with an RPD a few blocks away. So then you have 6.5, which is great for distance, but not necessarily a cartridge that I, personally, would want for CQB. The plain fact is that the 5.56 is the lesser evil for right now; poorer performance than 6.8 at close range, poorer performance than 6.5 at distance, but ironically perfect for those 200m-300m shots.

Someday, somebody will invent a super-awesome round that hits hard at close range, AND at 600m. I just hope it's in my lifetime.
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