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Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

 
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  #29  
Old 09-16-2012, 05:46 AM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

'Twould be nice to see some actual pressure measurements (CPU or PSI; whatever system one has) on Kirby's cartridges. I mention this as most cartridge brass starts extruding back into bolt face cutouts/holes at around 65,000 to 70,000 CUP.

If a 1.5 to 2 percent change in powder charge weight is 2 grains, that means the charge weight's in the 100 to 150 grain range. I think the spread in peak pressure across several rounds will overlap what a 2 grain drop's average will be below the average of the heavier load. In comparing standard loads to proof loads in cartridges, there's a much greater difference in charge weights for the same bullet used than 2%.
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  #30  
Old 09-16-2012, 03:50 PM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

[QUOTE=Bart B;696223]'Twould be nice to see some actual pressure measurements (CPU or PSI; whatever system one has) on Kirby's cartridges. I mention this as most cartridge brass starts extruding back into bolt face cutouts/holes at around 65,000 to 70,000 CUP. QUOTE]

I do not load them until the brass starts to extrude back into the bolt face. Not sure where your getting that INCORRECT information from but you need to stop quoting it as its inaccurate.

I have no need to do any pressure testing on my loads, the loads I recommend have been proven to offer AT LEAST 8 firings per case for any given wildcat. If you take any Wby and load it to Wbys own listed factory ballistics, you will get FAR less then 8 firings per case.

My loads use strong brass and very comfortable loads. They are designed to have very large case capacities so you DO NOT have to run them to red line to get the velocities I am listing. I have yet to have a customers rifles NOT produce the velocity I advertise and all offer very good brass life, even those that use the RUM parent case.

The only time I see any brass extrusion into the plunger ejector ring is when I am doing inital load development with a new wildcat. This is key to learn the limits of not only the wilcat but also the brass strength. SO again, stop making that incorrect quote that my wildcats and loads extrude brass back into the bolt face. THEY DO NOT when loaded to the velocity I recommend with the powders I recommend.

At the most you will see a very faint shadow ring, NOTHING shiny at all. This is exactly what you will see from factory 300 RUM ammo.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #31  
Old 09-18-2012, 10:22 AM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

Kirby:

The load development that you did for my gun works pretty well for a different lot of powder. You saw 3475 fps with the 175g SMK's and 110g of powder, I chrono'd some the other day in 85°F ambient temps and saw 3486-3494 fps with 109g (different lot than yours, and temps were higher than when you shot it).
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  #32  
Old 09-18-2012, 10:07 PM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
SO again, stop making that incorrect quote that my wildcats and loads extrude brass back into the bolt face. THEY DO NOT when loaded to the velocity I recommend with the powders I recommend.
Kirby, please reread my post. I never said your loads do that. I said: 'Twould be nice to see some actual pressure measurements (CPU or PSI; whatever system one has) on Kirby's cartridges. I mention this as most cartridge brass starts extruding back into bolt face cutouts/holes at around 65,000 to 70,000 CUP.'Course if you think "most cartridge brass" includes yours, then so be it. I don't know if yours fits in this category or not.

I've fired several hundred proof loads with peak pressure averaging 67,500 CUP. Some of it had raised areas above the normal surface matching bolt face cutouts. Others didn't.

Also, if one goes from a starting charge weight to another that shows what the objective is that's met by changing charge weights, that's a load development.
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  #33  
Old 09-19-2012, 08:23 AM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

My wildcats based on the RUM parent case, those being the 257 Allen Mag, 6.5mm Allen Mag, 270 Allen Mag and the 338 Ultra Maxx perform exactly how your are discribing. Rem brass is right in the middle of the road for hardness from what I have found.

In my Lapua based wildcats, those being the 277 Allen Mag, 7mm Allen Mag, 300 Allen Xpress, 338 Allen Xpress and 375 Allen Xpress, I could not use the Lapua brand brass while doing load development. Simply put this brass was to hard to read any early pressure signs. The Lapua brand brass will take +70,000 psi and not even blink. What appears to be a great load will be WAY over pressures.

This was very important when I started offering my wildcats to the public because at that time I was rebuilding the Rem 700 receivers and building them in my Lapua based wildcats. The Rem 700 is a great receiver but if loaded improperly, the 338 Lapua parent case can handle far more chamber pressure then the Rem 700 should be exposed to long term.

SO, when I developed my loads for my Lapua based wildcats, I used the Norma brand 338 Lapua cases. To do my comparision, the 338 Edge and the 338 Lapua have nearly identical case capacities. Depending on brand and lot of brass the two are generally within 1-2 grains and at times they can swap which has the largest capacity. For all intent and purpose, they are identical in capacity.

When you load then both to 2850 fps in a 30" barrel length with a 300 gr SMK, they also produced what appeared to be IDENTICAL pressures. Taking the experiment farther, when you loaded both cases to the point where they just started to loosen their primer pockets on the first firing, they were both at the same powder charge and right at 2950 fps. So, Same powder charge produced the same pressures, same velocity which gave me a base like to develope loads.

Knowing where the point was where the primer pockets started to let loose, and then backtracking to see where primer pockets would hold for 6-8 firings, I knew what my margin of error was and where I SHOULD be loading to as far as velocity was concerned.

PLEASE understand this is not loading recommendations, this was a test to find the pressure limits of each case and I do not recommend anyone do this. This was in a very controlled test with a very specific purpose.

Now with that information in hand I developed loads for all my wildcats on the Lapua case using the Norma brand of brass to the same pressure levels produced in the earlier tests. Max loads would offer +6 firings in the Norma brand brass.

When load development was done, I switched to the Lapua brand brass and have yet to loosen a primer pocket with that brass. These top loads will get +8 firings per case and at times +10. This is not because the primer pockets let loose. Its simply because the brass work hardens enough that as the cases get very old, they extraction starts to get sticky from the min body taper for max case capacity in this design. Again, primer pockets have never loosened on my recommend loads.

Hope this clearifies things.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #34  
Old 09-19-2012, 08:55 AM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
When load development was done, I switched to the Lapua brand brass and have yet to loosen a primer pocket with that brass. These top loads will get +8 firings per case and at times +10. This is not because the primer pockets let loose. Its simply because the brass work hardens enough that as the cases get very old, they extraction starts to get sticky from the min body taper for max case capacity in this design. Again, primer pockets have never loosened on my recommend loads.

Hope this clearifies things.
Kirby Have you ever played with annealing to see if it would extend useful case life?
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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
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  #35  
Old 09-19-2012, 10:00 AM
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Re: Kirby Allen’s “no load development” load development method.

Annealing extends your neck and shoulder life. I recommend annealing my 277 Allen Magnum and 7mm Allen Magnum after fireforming and then after the 5 firing. The 300 Allen Xpress I recommend annealing after the 5th firing.

The 338 Allen Xpress does not need annealing as the Lapua brass comes with a very soft anneal. THe 375 Allen Xpress should be annealed after 5 firings.

Remember however you can only anneal your case neck, shoulder and perhaps 3/4" below the shoulder. You should not anneal much below 3/4" under the case neck. While this will return the elasticity of your case necks and shoulders preventing cracks it will do nothing for the body of the case.

I have done alot of testing with body taper on my wildcats. Most of them have had 2 or 3 test reamers made and fully tested with varying degrees of body taper to offer max performance and also good long brass life. My design is not nearly as aggressive as a true Ackley Improved case design as far as body taper. There is a fine line you have to follow with body taper. The lower the body taper, the more case capacity you get, BUT, with the larger chamberings, the very low body taper results in sticky extraction as pressures climb.

I used this in my favor early on with my 7mm Allen Magnum. Many wanted Rem 700s to be converted to this chambering so as a safety feature I used very little body taper on the early 7mm Allen Magnums. As a result, the cases would have sticky extraction long before the handloader could get into pressure levels that would be dangerous for the Rem 700 receivers.

At the beginning of 2010, I made a business decision to stop working on the Rem 700 for the most part with my wildcats. This was because that my backlog had grown to the point I had to start working on only complete custom projects to help speed up turn around times. Because of this, I decided to change the design of my 7mm Allen Magnum to a new body taper which was significantly more then the old design which greatly improved the extaction performance of this design but it also allowed the use of noticably higher chamber pressures for higher performance but it did limit the safety margins offered by the Rem 700 which was the reason for stopping its use for the most part.

The 7mm AM easily picked up 100 fps with this new design with good extraction characteristics but it was more pressure then I wanted the Rem 700 to be exposed to. This was more from a liability stand point more then anything.

Anyone with the old 7mm AM chamber specs will be informed of the change in the event that they get an older rifle rebarreled as it will have the new chamber and they will be warned to stay to recommended loads and do not push things harder.

Most of the old 7mm AM owners have already had their barrels replaced and are running the new. There is not a major change in appearance in the two designs but cases fired in the old design will not fit in the new chamber.

As case baring surface increases, body taper needs to increase as well so its not a one rule for all type of thing.

And, annealing will not help, 6-8 firings are plenty. Realize that if you get 100 cases that means you will get 800 firings through the rifle, thats alot for a big game rifle. 200 rounds of brass will likely last the life of the barrel and in most cases, the carreer of most big game hunters, even serious big game hunters.

One nice thing about my wildcats is that you can take a bit of pressure off and still outperform pretty much every other chambering in their caliber families and then extend case life even more.

Most of the high performance wildcaters that design wildcats for the public are happy with 4-5 firings per case. Some I have talked to are happy with 2-3 firings per case. This is NOT acceptable for me, especially on a case that has to be formed.

That is one reason why I started offering formed cases for my wildcats and also developed loads that offer legit long case life. Many of my customers get more performance out of my wildcats then I load them to. I do not recommend that but at the points I load them to, there is quite a bit left in performance if someone is happy with 4-5 firings per case. Me personally, I just would rather have the longer brass life.

With the full custom rifles such as my Raptor receiver based rifles, there is nothing wrong at all pushing the throttle a bit harder, it will just cost you in a bit of brass life for very little down range improvement but there certainly is some to be had. The ultra strong Raptor will easily support anything the Lapua parent case can support but that is not a free pass to go crazy, I still have recommended loads for a reason, its much better to be safe and give up 50-75 fps as you will never notice that down range compared to the standard high performance loads I recommend.

While my chamberings have NOT been pressure tested, I suspect I have done more load development and testing them most that have released wildcats to the public and even some of the semi custom rifle shops that offer loaded ammo. Yes they may have pressure tested their ammo but even then I have run into some serious problems with some of their rifles, cases and performance recommendations.

Simply put, most people that offer loaded ammo will tell you a FPS level you will get out of your rifle, sadly that rifle and their ammo rarely live up to their advertisments. With an APS rifle, you WILL get what I say you will get because your rifle is tested before it leaves the shop with custom handloads to get you what I tell you it will get. IF you want to go from there, that is the customers call, if not, 80% of my customers use the loads I recommend.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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