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Reloading Techniques For Reloading


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I think I got hosed.

 
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  #1  
Old 06-03-2011, 12:16 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30
I think I got hosed.

all,
So I have a .22-250 model 12 fv savage that we were trying to come up with a load for to go p-dog hunting. After trying 4 different kinds of brass, 6 different bullets, 2 different primers, and having all of them blow out and flatten primers I concluded that something was wrong with the gun. Took it to a custom rifle maker/gun smith, he checked it with go/no go gauge and said the head space was too long. However he did not have the savage barrel nut wrench, so he could not complete the job by fixing it. So I took the gun to another gunsmith who assured me that the headspace might be correct and that there could be other overlooked problems that were causing the blowing out and flatning of primers. Went to pick the gun up today and he said that he used a bore scope and found an excessive amount of copper in the rifleing so he cleaned it very thouroughly. I could see where excesive copper would create extra pressure. But what I don't understand is where it came from. When I clean the barrel, I do a very thorough job, and I use sweets which is known to be a very strong solvent. The cleaning method that I prescribe to consists as follows...
1. Hoppes no 9 powder solvent on wire brush, 30 strokes(to break up powder and carbon residue that lies on top of copper)
2. Dry patches until they appear as clean as they were when I put them in.
3. Hoppes no 9 powder solvent on wire brush, 30 strokes, this time I let it soak for 30 minutes.
4. Repeat step 2
5. Hold gun up stock down barrel pointing straight up. Use old pistol cleaning rod with big cotton swab on end to jam into back end of barrel through reciever. Next poor sweets down inside of barrel and let soak for 30 minutes.
6. Repeat step 2.
7. Repeat step 3.
8. Repeat step 2.
9. Repeat step 5.
10. Repeat step 2.
11. Keep doing this until copper is no longer visible.
I last cleaned the barrel probably 100 shots before he saw it, is it possible that the gun built up that much copper in 100 shots? I have never heard of this...
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:30 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 133
Re: I think I got hosed.

1. Excess headspace causes head separations and probably not blown primers.

2. There is a difference between blown primers and flattened primers. A blown primer means the pressure was so excessive that the primer pocket loosened so much that the primer fell out when you removed the cartridge. A pierced primer means the pressure was so excessive that a hole was burned in the primer (a bad firing pin can also do this). Flattened primers are harder to read; in a strong bolt gun, as long as there is at least a small amount of rounded radius at the periphery of the primer, it's not flattened excessively.

3. I doubt copper buildup in a barrel could cause such excessive pressure as to pierce or blow primers. That said, I would never let a 22-250 barrel go 100 rounds without cleaning it. Also, Hoppes is VERY OLD technology. I quite using Hoppes over 2 decades ago and for the the most part have quit using brushes as well. Consider using Wipeout.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:08 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Spotsylvania, VA
Posts: 314
Re: I think I got hosed.

I too feel that 100 rounds is excessive during cleaning intervals. Have you considered sending the rifle to the manf'?. I use a mixture of Kroil and top engine cleaner for the carbon.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:57 AM
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Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 3,219
Re: I think I got hosed.

Not sure I can help you with the cause of your pressure problems, but I will comment on your cleaning process....too much! does your rifle have a factory barrel or a custom barrel? my custom barrels can be cleaned with about four patches total, after 20 rounds not 100.
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  #5  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:20 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 420
Re: I think I got hosed.

Brief check list: too much powder, Moly bullets on a cleanly stripped barrel. gas check bullets and a tight neck or donuts. Holes in primers with a good pin are from too large of a firing pin hole. Blown out of pocket primers are from over worked (too much pressure) brass or improper pocket cleaning that enlarges the pocket. The ABSOLUTE BEST diagnosis tool will be to shoot factory rounds and I'll bet the problem goes away, if it doesnt, you need to find the problem.
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  #6  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:15 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30
Re: I think I got hosed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken snyder View Post
Brief check list: too much powder, Moly bullets on a cleanly stripped barrel. gas check bullets and a tight neck or donuts. Holes in primers with a good pin are from too large of a firing pin hole. Blown out of pocket primers are from over worked (too much pressure) brass or improper pocket cleaning that enlarges the pocket. The ABSOLUTE BEST diagnosis tool will be to shoot factory rounds and I'll bet the problem goes away, if it doesnt, you need to find the problem.
The problem is definitely not there with factory ammo, I have shot winchester, and hornady factory ammo and the primers appear just fine. As far as my cleaning method, and waiting till 100 rounds to do it; guys, this is a prairie dog rig, and for personal preferances, I don't want to stop after every 20 shots to clean the gun. I know it will make for better accuracy, and the barrel will last longer...but when I'm prairie dog hunting I want to shoot accurate, dependable hand loads, for a whole weekend. If I'm doing any cleaning, it will be done at the hotel, after a full day of shooting. I know that this will not be a bench rest competition gun, but I know for a fact I have done it this way with 4 other rifles and they all consistenly shoot sub moa. I have never had this kind of problem before.

Ken, what you said about the brass being over worked makes sense. I just read a handloader magazine article about neck sizing and then form firing new brass. It said that many handloaders like myself, fall into the trap of believing that major brass manufactures don't know what there doing, so to fix all of their mistakes we should full length size our new brass. (Yes I did this, maybe the brass is overworked). Aside from going and buying new brass and starting over, is there any way to tell if the brass is overworked?
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  #7  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:54 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 420
Re: I think I got hosed.

If factory loads show no problem, then it is a reloading concern. Extracted cartridges that show no sign of over presure will exhibit high pressure signs on subsequent fireings of reloaded brass. It is not a one fired brass problem but a very good diagnosis of pressures that are a little overboard. Stretching occurs (generally) a little bit at a time and will show its ugly head. Take this advice with a grain of salt ( if it is not possible to get at least 6 firings off of nothing fancy done to it brass then put the gunpowder on a diet, chances are very excellent that you will significantly increase accuracy as well.) -- p.s. it is in my opinion that over pressure signs are very often accumilative and show up in brass life.
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