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how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

 
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  #22  
Old 01-28-2007, 09:02 PM
Chawlston
 
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Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I must be doing something wrong... I neck size for many (and I DO MEAN many) rifles. I FL size only when moving brass to another rifle. I have cases that have been neck sized over 20 times... enough that they had to be annealed several times.



But no swelling at the base in front of the web. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

What am I doing wrong [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

.

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Probably nothing. It is very difficult to "troubleshoot" someones problems with reloading, because we all approach it a little differently. For instance, I never neck size. I always partial FL size and bump the shoulder. This has never failed me and I do it in matches as well as hunting rounds. I want just a little resistance when I chamber the rounds. Nothing wrong, or right, just different.

If these guys are using the exact same reloads on both guns and they are the same brand of gun since they were swapping bolts around, I would imagine that they have either got the bolts mixed up or that they have some long cases. Based on the story of how difficult it is to just chamber a round, I think it is way beyond a tight cartridge base.

James

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Hi,

OK I just remove the ammo from my barrell
I was going to the GunShop in my town (Wholesalesports), and there are some great guys.
One of him was removing the stuck ammo from my rifle, using the cleaning road, and tapping slowlly with a hammer.
The round it was comming out, and we all could see the problem.
"growth" in diameter of the case body just ahead of the web area.
The guy told me to check also the cases after Neck Resizing, because at some round I can get a defformed area close to he web (specially after 3-4 reloading at the same round with a maximum/hot load)
We could see with the free eyes, without using a caliper the deforming area...

Woow I was so lucky.
FOR NOW I WILL DOUBLE CHECK THE CASE DIMMENSION BEFORE AND SPECIALLY AFTER RESIZING.

About changing the bolts between this to rifle...
we have the same rifles 300 rem ultra mags, and WE NEWER INTERCHANGE BOLTS BETWEEN THIS RIFLE.
JUST YESTERDAY, WHEN MY LIVE AMMO IT WAS STUCK, I was thinking if I will use his bolt (because of the bigger extractring clow) I can catch the bras and will be more easelly to remove.
WRONG. The problem it was the case deforming after NR.


Thank you for all your support.
Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

And, this is why partial sizing yeilds such good accurate and realible loads as compared to neck sizing only. If you just bump the shoulder, you will have partially resized the case body enough to prevent problems chambering and extracting after firing the round.. Don't be confused that partial full length resizing only gets the neck and a little bit of the shoulder. It also gets enough of the body to make your brass last longer and provide more reliable operation than any other form of sizing.

Full-length sizing over works the brass and will actually cause headspace prblems and this will lead to premature case head seperation. Be careful out there.

James
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  #23  
Old 01-29-2007, 04:41 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 920
Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

[ QUOTE ]
Probably nothing. It is very difficult to "troubleshoot" someones problems with reloading, because we all approach it a little differently. James

[/ QUOTE ]

James... my comment was with tongue well planted in cheek.

Neck sizing does NOT cause the case to expand in front of the web.

.
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  #24  
Old 01-29-2007, 09:20 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 184
Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

Some things I have learned by "experience". I define "Experience" as "Mistakes which I have survived".

There are dies that are called Full Length sizer dies that do just that; depending on the way the die is adjusted. At one time, instructions which came with these dies said to set the die in the press so that the bottom of the die was in firm contact with the shell holder when the press ram was raised. What the instructions didn't say was that if this setting produced the correct amount of sizing, you were very lucky.

These dies may be adjusted to size the case too much or too little; that is the die may be adjusted to not even touch the shoulder or to push the shoulder back too far. During this process, the sizing action upon the body of the case will vary. If the FL die is adjusted to push the shoulder back, the body of the case will be made slightly smaller and vice versa. I have one FL size die that was several thousandths of an inch too long to properly size cases. I ground a little off the bottom of the die to let it go lower in the press--could have taken a little off the top of the shell holder, also.

As with most things, there is a "sweet spot". If loading for a bolt action, I like to adjust the FL size die to produce a slight resistance when the DISASSEMBLED bolt is closed on the sized case. To do this, I put the size die in the press with about 1/8 inch space between the bottom of the die and top of the shellholder. I then size one case and observe how far down the neck it is sized. I screw the die a little farther into the press, and size the same case again, checking the neck to see how much of it is sized. This process continues until the sizing action approaches 1/32 inch or so from the shoulder.

I then try the case (after removing the lube) in the chamber. Usually the bolt won't close. Continue the process, turning the die deeper into the press very slightly until the disassenbled bolt will close with very slight resistance.

This die position produces, for me, the fit and feel which I like and which I have found to give trouble free functioning and fine accuracy FOR MOST PURPOSES. Be aware that this technique can get you in trouble if you get any debris (grass seed, pocket fuzz, leaf fragment etc.) in the chamber. For really important shots (dangerous game, self defense and so on) I would want the disassembled bolt to close of its own weight.

I don't use Neck Size dies--I don't do Benchrest. No slam on BR shooting, we owe those guys most of what we have as far as accuracy is concerned.

With that said, Neck Size dies, as far as I know, don't size the case body. I don't think BR shooters (except the 1K guys) stress their cases nearly as much as we do. They can wear out a bbl. with relatively few cases; we usually do very well to get 10 reloads from each piece of brass.

Most BR loading techniques are very adaptable to our use, however, to try to use BR sizing techniques for full steam hunting loads can cause some problems.

When I load for semi-auto rifles (seldom, but I do have a couple of Garands) I use a case gauge to determine proper sizing. Yes, the cases are overworked, but they get very battered in the action anyway. Usually only last 3 or 4 loads.

My $0.02. Flame suit on!

Jim
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  #25  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:06 PM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

"With that said, Neck Size dies, as far as I know, don't size the case body. I don't think BR shooters (except the 1K guys) stress their cases nearly as much as we do. They can wear out a bbl. with relatively few cases; we usually do very well to get 10 reloads from each piece of brass."

If you run some pressure tests on these chambers, you will be suprised at how high the pressures run. We use faster burning powders and the result would be pressures in the area of the 300 Remington Ultra Magnum for the loads we shoot. The secret is to get the chamber and dies in close dimensional concert with the brass. That is how we can load them so many times. We just don't work our brass as much. Additionally, I am still working with my original 30 pieces of brass for my 338 Lapua. I also wore out a 30/338 Lapua barrel with 20 rounds of brass. So the above coment about benchrest brass life as compared to LR hunting brass life falls somewhat short in the accuracy catagory.

Behcnrest techniques are aimed at getting the most out of the cartridge, bullet, rifle and shooter. They should not be used in semi-auto guns (completely different bird) or dangerous game setups. A little extra slop will allow the shooter dirt and debris in the action while still allowing the rifle to function. Last time I checked most people do not shoot long range at dangerous game and or with semi autos for long range hunting. With that being said, I think that I will continue to use processes to enable me to put my rounds as close to my aiming point as possible for my long range hunting.

With the exception of the above, the previous posting is a very good accurate rendition.

James
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  #26  
Old 01-29-2007, 07:39 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Casselberry, FL
Posts: 190
Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

Chawlston,
I agree with your resizing technique, and I use the exact same process on SOME of my rifles. I usually like to get that last bit of accuracy no matter what it takes. However, I've found that very few shooters measure their cases accurately enough, and when headspace becomes guesswork .... jammed handloads will happen.

I also agree with your advice on resizing handloads for semi auto chambers. You might be surprised to see how many hunters out west are hunting game out to 600 yards.

- Innovative
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  #27  
Old 01-29-2007, 09:19 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Posts: 926
Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

Chawlston is correct. The springback in the brass is reduced after firing several times and the case will develop a crush fit in the shoulder area if only neck sized. Depending upon the type of case and the strength of the load, this crush fit will become severe and cause the problems described in this thread.

If you have a Stoney Point Head & Shoulders Gauge you can measure this and relieve the crush fit by Partial Full Length Resizing when the bolt becomes hard to close on a case. I measured the following on a 30-06 and it is typical of all the calibers and rifles I reload for. These cases were neck sized with the Lee Collet and measured to the shoulder with the SP H & S Gauge:

new cases - 4.0400" (the measurement isn't important, only its relationship to the other measurements)
once fired - 4.0485"
twice fired - 4.0500"
3 times fired - 4.0510" (very slight crush fit)
4 times fired - 4.0515" (crush fit, hard to chamber case)

This is when I use the Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back to 4.0510". From then on with these case I will have to neck size with the Lee Collet, body size and push the shoulder back with the Redding Body Die for the life of the case.

I really don't know how a shooter can neck size only for over 5 loadings of a substantial hunting load without problems. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2007, 08:27 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Casselberry, FL
Posts: 190
Re: how to remove jammed cartridges from chamber?

I agree with Chawlston when he said that neck sized handloads need to have the shoulder bumped back, AND the less you resize a case - the less it will stretch, AND the less they stretch the longer your brass will last.

However, I have also seen neck sized cases (bumped back) that would not chamber due to vertical compression causing the pressure ring to expand. This happens because the pressure ring is thinner brass, and even the slightest downward pressure from dies can bulge this area very slightly. On neck sized cases it only takes an extra thousandth of an inch.

Another example of vertical compression is when you neck size thin necked calibers (like the 30-30), even the case neck can buckle enough to make handloads jam - just by adding a slight crimp. Anyway ... when you FL resize a case and you can feel your press working hard. This resistance comes as the pressure ring is being compressed on a tapered case.

All I'm suggesting is to keep an eye on the pressure ring. It's "something else" to look at. Make sure your handloads will chamber, especially when hunting dangerous game. Keep in mind that neck sized cases are far more likely to jam with just a single grain of sand in your chamber. Not every shooter is shooting from the bench under ideal conditions.

- Innovative
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