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How to reduce bullet runout?

 
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  #15  
Old 10-27-2008, 09:30 PM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

[QUOTE=boomtube;235991]Boss Hoss - "Please provide the backup data that supports your analysis as I am curious how you quantified your conclusions. I hear this all of the time and in the end it is usually based on assumptions and "something somebody heard from someone" else not actual testing and fact finding by the poster."

There are several statements in my post and I have no idea what statements or conclusions your question is related to.
Do you have any actual test data, or even assumptions, contridicting one or more of my statements? If so, don't just ask an open ended question, please tell me/us specifically what you find absent, misleading or wrong in my post.
---------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE]

Not to be rude but you are obviously one of the types of shooters who I am referring to. Actually I knew you were when I posted this-----anyone who thinks a Arbor Press seating die is made from a roughing reamer is in the weeds. I do not feel it necessary to go any further.

Here is another post you made that does not make any sense at all---How Do You Size Without A Threaded Die LOL????? Bet it is pretty tough to hold with pliers LOL!!

29-2008, 09:39 PM
boomtube
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mountians of SW NC, near Asheville
Posts: 164

Re: Lee Collet die or Redding bushing die for best neck sizing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the Lee neck die is superior to all others, unless you're a BR shooter. But THEN you wouldn't use threaded dies at all.
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Last edited by Boss Hoss; 10-27-2008 at 09:39 PM.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2008, 09:30 PM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

Factory rifle you say??? Not at all, two different match-grade .308's, both custom built by Jim Cloward, that wonderful builder of long-range rifles... Krieger barrels, trued actions etc... The arbor press and Wilson dies were a step along the way, when I was trying for my NRA long-range "high master" rating. The dies helped improve my handloads - never got any more of those annoying 9-ring flyers except when I'd forget to watch the wind...

I was so smitten by the arbor press and the Wilson dies though, that they're the only dies I've used for my .25-06, and my .204, both of which are factory rifles. Kind of hard for me to make a comparison since I never went with the standard RCBS type dies with those rifles. They do shoot though...

Except with the .308, I can't make a direct comparison of Wilson dies vs standard dies. With the .308, I saw a definite advantage. My groups and scores tightened right up.

Regards, Guy
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  #17  
Old 10-28-2008, 11:51 AM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

Guy - Great. I assumed too much when you said you had a "Savage ...etc.", thinking you simply had a factory Savage. You don't! You have a much more advanced rifle based on a Savage, not a Savage as such!

I'm sure your groups got "tighter" with the BR methods. But Hoss seems to want to know just how much tighter. Actually, I'd like to know too!

----------------------

Hoss - you are putting words in my mouth and that ain't sanitary.

I made no mention of seating dies cut with rougher reamers. But you should know that some custom gun makers do cut sizers with the roughing reamers they have chambered the rifle with. I might have elaborated more to keep you from being confused I guess but I wasn't trying to present a treatise on precision handloading, per se, just addressing a side issue of the OP's quesion. You might wish to read "Precision Shoooting - Reloading Guide", "The Accurate Rifle" and "Reloading for Competition" for that.

Weeds or no weeds, you should understand that "roughing" reamers are not rough. Roughers are as well made as finish reamers, just ground to slighly smaller dimensions. Roughers do most of the chamber work so the finisher can better clean up the final cuts, for either die or rifle.

Off-the-shelf sizers and seaters, by Wilson or anyone else, are cut to SAAMI specs which means they may not be a perfect match to the rifle. Those sizers made by a good smith using the rougher WILL be a perfect match.

Speaking of weeds, is it your understanding that hand dies, those used in arbor presses, use shell holders to pull cases from the dies? If so, you are incorrect.

As I stated, it is my BELIEF that the Lee Collet Neck die is superior to all conventional neck dies. That was given as a personal observation and not as a statistical or mechanical fact. I based that statement on the concentricity measurements I've made using several conventional neck sizers from RCBS, Redding and Forster compared to the Lee die when used in four cartridges. The average concentricity, from the same cases, improved by some 30-40%. Is it your belief that I am wrong, and, if so, what do you suggest is superior to the Lee neck sizer? And, to use your own question, what data do you have to support your opinion?

Last edited by boomtube; 10-28-2008 at 12:19 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2008, 01:31 PM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

OK Guys, seems like i'm going to have to produce some "data" if i wish to make any further posts in this thread;)
I took those same 16 cases from the "wobly load" after launching those bergers and measured the outsides of the necks in fireformed state, then i neck sized them in my (wonky sloppy) lee classic cast press using a leymann neck sizer die and measured the necks again. I then loaded up some more of those bergers and measured runout near the tips of the bullets. My findings below. (I am metricated, but for those thinking in inches: 0.001 inch = 0.0254mm)

Case No.****runout****runout****runout
**********after******after*****at tip
**********firing******necksizing*of bullet
-----------------------------------------------
1 *********0.01***** 0.02 *****0.26
2 *********0.03***** 0.02 *****0.09
3 *********0.04***** 0.04 *****0.15
4 *********0.01***** 0.03 *****0.14
5 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.11
6 *********0.03***** 0.02 *****0.19
7 *********0.02***** 0.02 *****0.19
8 *********0.04***** 0.02 *****0.19
9 *********0.02***** 0.04 *****0.24
10 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.15
11 *********0.02***** 0.02 *****0.16
12 *********0.03***** 0.02 *****0.21
13 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.27
14 *********0.01***** 0.02 *****0.18
15 *********0.04***** 0.03 *****0.19
16 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.14
--------------------------------------------
Total *******0.42***** 0.42 *****2.86

As can be seen from above, the runout stays the same after neck sizing and most of the runout is created during the seating process.(bullet - seating die mismatch) If i am going to continue with the bergers i would have to invest in another seating die. (keeping in mind that the runout is also AMPLIFIED towards the tip of the bullet)
I will test some sierra game kings as substitute for the bergers next week and if they perform reasonably well and the runout is 4 thou or less, i might continue with the current setup for now.

Thank you all for the input, i find the debate very informative.

Last edited by zoeper; 10-28-2008 at 01:39 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-28-2008, 02:26 PM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomtube View Post
Guy - Great. I assumed too much when you said you had a "Savage ...etc.", thinking you simply had a factory Savage. You don't! You have a much more advanced rifle based on a Savage, not a Savage as such!

I'm sure your groups got "tighter" with the BR methods. But Hoss seems to want to know just how much tighter. Actually, I'd like to know too!

----------------------

Hoss - you are putting words in my mouth and that ain't sanitary.

I made no mention of seating dies cut with rougher reamers. But you should know that some custom gun makers do cut sizers with the roughing reamers they have chambered the rifle with. I might have elaborated more to keep you from being confused I guess but I wasn't trying to present a treatise on precision handloading, per se, just addressing a side issue of the OP's quesion. You might wish to read "Precision Shoooting - Reloading Guide", "The Accurate Rifle" and "Reloading for Competition" for that.

Weeds or no weeds, you should understand that "roughing" reamers are not rough. Roughers are as well made as finish reamers, just ground to slighly smaller dimensions. Roughers do most of the chamber work so the finisher can better clean up the final cuts, for either die or rifle.

Off-the-shelf sizers and seaters, by Wilson or anyone else, are cut to SAAMI specs which means they may not be a perfect match to the rifle. Those sizers made by a good smith using the rougher WILL be a perfect match.

Speaking of weeds, is it your understanding that hand dies, those used in arbor presses, use shell holders to pull cases from the dies? If so, you are incorrect.

As I stated, it is my BELIEF that the Lee Collet Neck die is superior to all conventional neck dies. That was given as a personal observation and not as a statistical or mechanical fact. I based that statement on the concentricity measurements I've made using several conventional neck sizers from RCBS, Redding and Forster compared to the Lee die when used in four cartridges. The average concentricity, from the same cases, improved by some 30-40%. Is it your belief that I am wrong, and, if so, what do you suggest is superior to the Lee neck sizer? And, to use your own question, what data do you have to support your opinion?
MY GOD MAN------arbor presses are used for seating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHEN BUILDING CUSTOM DIES THE FINISH REAMER IS USED FOR THE SEATING DIE. I have a safe full of reamers (some roughing and some finish only depending on the caliber made for my sporters and my competition rifles including point up dies for specific SMK bullets. I also use the Buhay tool to sort by bearing surface and I am not going to go into further detail as you are clearly not from your comments someone who is into the upper end of the sport shall we say.

In the competitive BR Game everyone that I know of full length resizes from the point blank shooters to the 1K BR guys like me. Some of these people are world record holders as well as HOF members. I am successful and have learned from some of the best --- the message here is stop digging yourself in deeper!

To put it bluntly I do not have runout issues because my brass is lathe turned and my dies are perfect both chambering and seating. My rifles are not factory as they are not woth putting this much effort into--there is a point of diminishing returns for factory rifles.
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Last edited by Boss Hoss; 10-28-2008 at 02:29 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2008, 05:42 PM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

"MY GOD MAN------arbor presses are used for seating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

And a bit of neck sizing perhaps?

Enough.
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  #21  
Old 10-28-2008, 07:51 PM
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Re: How to reduce bullet runout?

If the die is made from a roughing reamer I would like to see the finished product!!!!LOL
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