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Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

 
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2010, 01:09 AM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

I just started using the Hornady gauge and am happy with it. I especially like the option of using the gauge to correct excessive runout.

Right now I am checking rounds loaded on various presses using the same dies. After checking three presses (with six to go), I am finding that the difference in presses is minimal. All rounds have checked out in the range of .001-.0024. Once my test is completed I will publish my data on Castboolits.

My question is for you all: is the Sinclair method (case body supported by rollers) more accurate than the Hornady method (case supported by a combination of the case head and bullet nose)?

There are good videos of both gauges on Youtube.
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  #16  
Old 12-16-2010, 09:47 AM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
is the Sinclair method (case body supported by rollers) more accurate than the Hornady method (case supported by a combination of the case head and bullet nose)
YES
This gage is for 'concentricity': HORNADY : Hornady Lock-N-Load Concentricity Gauge (050076 ) -
This gage is for runout:
SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL : Sinclair Concentricity Gage with dial indicator (09-175 ) -
(I know they call it a concentricity gage instead of a runout gage,,, It's a runout gage)

Runout, concentricity, and ecentricity are different things. In fact, you should never be searching for concentricity, but eccentricity instead.
You can have low eccentricity(concentric ammo) with a great deal of runout remaining.
But if you eliminate runout, your ammo will be concentric.
It's not a play on words, once a round is chambered.

Speaking of play on words, what's with this?
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Reloading :: Metallic Reloading :: Tools & Gauges :: Lock-N-LoadŽ Ammunition Concentricity Gauge :: Ammunition Concentricity Tool
Hornady claims:

"Hornady never ceases to find ways to provide unmatched accuracy in every facet of the shooting experience"
YEAH, THEY 'FIND' OTHER PEOPLE'S PRODUCTS, COPY THEM, AND STEAL AWAY THEIR MARKETS..

"The new Ammunition Concentricity Tool is the first tool on the market to both identify and eliminate bullet runout"
HELLO?? WE KNOW ABOUT BERSIN, AND H&H Concentricity Gauge
WE ALSO KNOW ABOUT RCBS CHARGEMASTER, WHICH YOU'VE 'FOUND' FOR US: HORNADY : Hornady Lock-N-Load Auto Charge -

"Just place ammunition in the tool, roll it, identify runout, and use the dial indicator to adjust runout to zero"
TOTAL BS, AND THEY FORGOT CONCENTRICITY!!
NO THEY DIDN'T FORGET. THEY NEVER KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
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  #17  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:48 PM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
I just started using the Hornady gauge and am happy with it. I especially like the option of using the gauge to correct excessive runout.

Right now I am checking rounds loaded on various presses using the same dies. After checking three presses (with six to go), I am finding that the difference in presses is minimal. All rounds have checked out in the range of .001-.0024. Once my test is completed I will publish my data on Castboolits.

My question is for you all: is the Sinclair method (case body supported by rollers) more accurate than the Hornady method (case supported by a combination of the case head and bullet nose)?

There are good videos of both gauges on Youtube.
the original Sinclair gauge used ground steel dowl pins, and it was replaced by the ball bearing job. Nothing to write home about, but cheap to build. You can do a certain amount with the Sinclair gauge, and then you stop. You can pretty much do it all with the NECO.

I've owned three presses, and have used about six more extensively. There is a difference in presses, just like there is in dies. 95% of the press / die combinations will not consistantly do .0025 TIR
gary
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  #18  
Old 12-16-2010, 01:05 PM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

I don't believe I have ever seen a more acerbic Hornady basher.

Most companies "borrow" product ideas from each other and release their own versions, hopefully with improvements and at a better price. That's not stealing as long as patents aren't violated. No one should be faulting anyone for wanting to build a better mousetrap (e.g. Lee released a handheld primer tool a long time ago. Since then, RCBS, Hornady, Sinclair, and probably others have released similar products. Are they all thieves who should be called out for seeing a good thing and releasing their own versions? e.g. Someone, somewhere, at some time in the past manufactured a bench-mounted reloading press. Others heard of it and released their own. Should all reloading companies be called thieves?).


Concentricity vs Runout:

And from reading many posts, magazine articles, and reloading books, everyone seems be using the term "concentricity" interchangeably with "runout".

*From Wikipedia: "Concentric objects share the same center, axis or origin with one inside the other. Circles, tubes, cylindrical shafts, disks, and spheres may be concentric to one another."

*From The High Road: "The Bersin tool holds the round in a jig and measures runout. You turn the round until the dial indicator reads maximum runout. On the opposite side of the dial is a knob you turn to "push" the bullet."

*Zediker's Handloading For Competition, 11th printing (2008), page 161: "Determining concentricity is easy enough...(if you have) the proper tool...The simplest is made by Sinclair...The gage will measure runout at any point along the cartridge".

"This BERSIN Ammunition Measuring and Adjustment Device is a revolutionary invention in precision shooting. The device diagnoses and eliminates errors in the longitudinal axis in rifle ammunition (concentricity flaws)."
source: http://www.centuryarms.com/bersin.pdf

Comparing the BERSIN to the Hornady, I see both doing the same thing: measuring bullet runout and correcting the problem. I also see the Hornady gage doing the same thing as the Sinclair: measuring bullet runout.

I think that what you are saying is that "runout" is a subset of "concentricity". That bullet runout can be caused by different factors including deviations in neck wall thickness that can cause the bullet to go out of alignment. If that is not correct, please educate us.
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  #19  
Old 12-16-2010, 01:09 PM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
...die combinations will not consistantly do .0025 TIR
gary
Interesting. My equipment isn't anything special, and yet I am getting numbers <.0025.

Perhaps my methodology is wrong. Shouldn't I be setting the gage as far forward on the bullet shank as possible, just short of the ogive?
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  #20  
Old 12-16-2010, 01:36 PM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

While we all want whatever gadgets we can get our hands on that will aid in making the very best handloads, ultimately, I don't think any of us can tell much difference at the range.

I have seen several of the mentioned ones in use, and I settled on the Sinclair. No other gauge is going to improve my groups IMO, whether cheaper or more expensive.
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  #21  
Old 12-16-2010, 01:49 PM
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Re: Hornady or Sinclair concentricity guage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
Interesting. My equipment isn't anything special, and yet I am getting numbers <.0025.

Perhaps my methodology is wrong. Shouldn't I be setting the gage as far forward on the bullet shank as possible, just short of the ogive?
first of all I don't care whatkind of a loading system you use. That's the user's own business.

To put concentricity into the frame of mind we're talking you have to imagine a centerline running thru the exact center axis of the case. Errors are measured off that axis. There's also a "yaw" measurment which tells us just how strait the bullet is seated in the neck (even if the case is dead perfect). When I check a bullet to see how strait it is to the center line axis I will check it just in front of the case rim. Then I'll usually move about 2/3's to 3/4 of the way down the bullet and recheck it. If the high points are in line with each other the bullet is at least strait, but not always centered with the case axis centerline.

Now I'm gonna knock both Hornaday and Sinclair a bit, so take it for what it's worth. They both use a bad indicator setup (to say it's bad is putting it mildly). The gear & rack indicators they are using are built with about 10% lag in them (a term used in gauging that refers to backlash). You can buy jeweled gear & rack indicators that have about 3%, but they also are expensive. The Sinclair uses a cheap ball bearing setup that is actually built to ease moving of a part into a precision locator for precise measurement. These often have anywhere from .0015 to .010 error built into them. They do make a super precision version that cost more than their gauge per block. There is a much better way to do this for about twenty dollars a bearing pack (I won't say here). There's also a problem with the Sinclair in axis alignment that will actually cause error. Of the two I like the Hornaday better after I throw their dial indicator in the trash can
gary
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