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Help, concentricity problems.

 
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  #15  
Old 01-21-2007, 08:34 PM
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Location: medford wi usa
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

You are right we are debating two different methods to get the same result. I've actually done some neck turning in my day as well as removing expander balls and worked with things like the M-die. In the long run nothing has been more simple or accurate FOR ME than getting that nasty expander ball centered in the die. If the guy can make runnout on most of his ammo right around .001" in one step....just like the die is designed to work...no neck turning.....no mulitple steps....then why not give my method a try??
And I understand that you are right...this is a long range forum but I'll bet 80% of the people that spend some time here don't always hunt with custom long range rigs.
My simple idea will work well for that 80% of the people if they give it a try.
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  #16  
Old 01-22-2007, 08:25 AM
Chawlston
 
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

[ QUOTE ]
You are right we are debating two different methods to get the same result. I've actually done some neck turning in my day as well as removing expander balls and worked with things like the M-die. In the long run nothing has been more simple or accurate FOR ME than getting that nasty expander ball centered in the die. If the guy can make runnout on most of his ammo right around .001" in one step....just like the die is designed to work...no neck turning.....no mulitple steps....then why not give my method a try??
And I understand that you are right...this is a long range forum but I'll bet 80% of the people that spend some time here don't always hunt with custom long range rigs.
My simple idea will work well for that 80% of the people if they give it a try.

[/ QUOTE ]

Removing the expander ball and turning the case necks to .0001" concentricity works 100% of the time if the die is concentric. Like I said before, we use this technique on factory guns as well to get them in the 1/4-1/2 moa ballpark. I am sure it will work on the used Sendero I just bought to use as a loaner gun for my hunting guests. If it doesn't I will let you know. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

James
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  #17  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:17 AM
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

James--if you have factory guns shooting that good with factory ammo just by changing seating depth....and doing 1/4-1/2 MOA something tells me you've done a few tricks to the guns....it isn't just neck turned ammo.
Would you mind telling us what "factory" guns you're shooting and what you've done to them??
Have you ever run your own experiment on ammo with near zero runnout vrs ammo with say .004" runnout in these guns??
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  #18  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:55 AM
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

Kraky

I appreciate your post. I have two custom guns that I have to use the expander on. One of them I tried to order a neck die to be built but they wouldn't do it and now that I have figured out that the gun shoots better than me without a custom made die I just go along with the full length expander die and sloppy runouts. Even if I made better ammo I am not good enough to see it. I keep on trying though.
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  #19  
Old 01-22-2007, 01:00 PM
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

Buffalobob--try giving the expander stem small turns...I swear to goodness you will find a spot within one full rotation that brings your runnout down to almost NIL!
One other thing I've noticed....as you thread your sizing die into the press watch the decapping pin....if it wobbles as you are screwing the die into the press it is most likely not centered. After you do my little trick and get it more centered you'll see a change as you screw the die in.
On other forums I've had alot of people tell me this has worked as well for them as it has me. (And this really isn't a trick at all....it's just a little common sense that people haven't thought of.)
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  #20  
Old 01-22-2007, 02:54 PM
Chawlston
 
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

[ QUOTE ]
James--if you have factory guns shooting that good with factory ammo just by changing seating depth....and doing 1/4-1/2 MOA something tells me you've done a few tricks to the guns....it isn't just neck turned ammo.
Would you mind telling us what "factory" guns you're shooting and what you've done to them??
Have you ever run your own experiment on ammo with near zero runnout vrs ammo with say .004" runnout in these guns??

[/ QUOTE ]

The factory ammo I tune is obviously not neck turned.......

I will not load for somebody due to liability issues.... But, I will take their factory loaded ammo that they supply me and adjust the seating depth to the point where the gun likes it. Ruger #1s and Remington 700s without anything else done to them whatsoever and if you can't get them between 1/4" and 1/2" at 100 yards, then you are not done with it yet. I tuned my personal factory Ruger #1 to where it would shoot in the zeros for three shots at 100 and it had a sporter weight barrel. It is really not difficult to acheive these results if you feed the beasts what they prefer AND pay attention to the most intricate of details. I was going to play with the triggers, but decided that it would be a waste of time with stock factory guns.

If you knew the amount of freebore differences between manufacturers with the same caliber, you would wonder how some rifles even shoot 4" groups at 100 yards with over the counter ammo.

Finally, yes, I have run my own experiment and thus the reason I am adimant about the expander ball. The closer to zero runout, the smaller the groups were and vice versa. I initially had the same process that you use and finally decided to listen to some who have more experience than I and I was glad they took the time to try and help me. Since then, not one expander ball has ever touched the inside neck of any of my cases.......... That is except for revolver and semi-auto pistol cartridges.

The small amount of time it took me to turn the necks on my cartridges to eliminate any concentricity error was worth it to me because I attempt to make them the most accurate that is possible. After that, any shooting error or shot disperions is solely pilot error.

James
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  #21  
Old 01-22-2007, 04:09 PM
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Re: Help, concentricity problems.

My expander ball and decaping pin are way off of center. Is it reasonable to leave the lock nut loose and just let the expander ball floar? "Sounds" reasonable to me?
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