Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > Reloading

Reloading Techniques For Reloading


Reply

Help, concentricity problems.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #8  
Old 01-21-2007, 09:43 AM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Posts: 8,061
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

I've been thinking of sending Kirby my Wilson 270 Win Case holder and have it opened for the AM then use the Wilson 270 inside neck reamer.

I've used it on my 270 Win for over 30 years and since the Lilja bbl has been installed the groups have run as low and the 1s and hangs around the 4s @ 200 the wind not withstanding.

Also the reamer is used after firing and before sizing which eliminates the expander ball from the eq'n.

Neck turning is a bit of a different as the expander ball goes through the neck first.

But either way, I see no problem getting my AM coyote accurate out to 1100 or maybe a bit more.
__________________
I may be the slowest guy on the mountain . . . . but . . . . I'm on the mountain!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-21-2007, 11:13 AM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking of sending Kirby my Wilson 270 Win Case holder and have it opened for the AM then use the Wilson 270 inside neck reamer.

I've used it on my 270 Win for over 30 years and since the Lilja bbl has been installed the groups have run as low and the 1s and hangs around the 4s @ 200 the wind not withstanding.

Also the reamer is used after firing and before sizing which eliminates the expander ball from the eq'n.

Neck turning is a bit of a different as the expander ball goes through the neck first.

But either way, I see no problem getting my AM coyote accurate out to 1100 or maybe a bit more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully this does not hurt any feelings but...........

Neck reaming is a chainsaw approach to a surgical problem. You cannot control the thickness of the cut or the thickness of the neck during neck reaming. Neck reaming still relies on alignment of the cartridge to the cutter for a straight cut. Turning the necks is the absolute most accurate way to get it done and really the only smart way to approach the issue of concentricity..

Several years ago, I thought the same thing about neck reaming. Now, I have some neck reamers for sale if anyone would like some.

Neck reaming is only good for getting the "dreaded doughnut" out of a case neck and not for addressing concentricity issues due to neck thickness irregularities.

James
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-21-2007, 04:22 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: medford wi usa
Posts: 273
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

Here's what I paste when people talk about runnout. I've fine tuned my dies via this method for years. People have written me back and said it worked great for them too. It's just a simple way to get the expander ball back as near to the center of the die as possible. Most my FL dies will give me loaded ammo as good as any lee collet die and I've come to believe the neck tension is more consistant with the fl die. Anyhow here's what works for me:

My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die and could pull a case slightly off center??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-21-2007, 04:49 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Posts: 8,061
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

No hurt feelings here.

I'm not sensitive to revealing where I've been and where I am, so as to be able to accept sincere recommendations to be able to improve.
__________________
I may be the slowest guy on the mountain . . . . but . . . . I'm on the mountain!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-21-2007, 04:58 PM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I paste when people talk about runnout. I've fine tuned my dies via this method for years. People have written me back and said it worked great for them too. It's just a simple way to get the expander ball back as near to the center of the die as possible. Most my FL dies will give me loaded ammo as good as any lee collet die and I've come to believe the neck tension is more consistant with the fl die. Anyhow here's what works for me:

My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die and could pull a case slightly off center??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you buy the most concentric type die, you won't have to tune it. Expander ball dies do not produce as good ammo as bushing dies unless the expander ball is removed and the necks sized to use the die without the expander ball....

When you are pulling the case out of the die during the sizing process, how do you ensure proper case alignment to compete with the necks being centered when the case is firm in the die for bushing style dies..... Keep in mind we are attempting to get zero bullet runout ammo. Expander ball process is for just loading ammo and dies used without expander balls are for making supremely accurate ammo. Go to a becnhrest match and count the number of expander balls in use. I would venture that you won't find any. At least I have never heard of or seen anyone compete using expander ball dies for competition.

Remember, we are trying to get zero runout ammo.

James
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-21-2007, 06:32 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: medford wi usa
Posts: 273
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

I never argued that bushing dies weren't good. The POINT of my post is to let people know they can make really good ammo with the dies that so many people already have sitting on their shelf. I have many sets of conventional dies that make alot of ammo at about .0015" and under.
NOt that I think my factory weatherby and browing Bar (two of my favorite hunting rifles) would know the difference betweeen .001 and .004" runnout. But my fussy 300 wby ultralight did shoot a 1.1" 300 yd group the other day.
Not everyone has an arsenal of match grade hunting rifles or benchrest rifles. If you do then by all means go ahead and feed them with ammo made with bushing dies.
In the meantime alot of good shooting ammo can be made for the rest of us with the dies we have sitting on the shelf right now. AND alot of that ammo will shoot good not because it has .001" runnout or .003" runnout but because through alot of experimenting the reloading has found the exact right powder, bullet, and seating depth combination.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-21-2007, 07:03 PM
Chawlston
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Help, concentricity problems.

[ QUOTE ]
I never argued that bushing dies weren't good. The POINT of my post is to let people know they can make really good ammo with the dies that so many people already have sitting on their shelf. I have many sets of conventional dies that make alot of ammo at about .0015" and under.
NOt that I think my factory weatherby and browing Bar (two of my favorite hunting rifles) would know the difference betweeen .001 and .004" runnout. But my fussy 300 wby ultralight did shoot a 1.1" 300 yd group the other day.
Not everyone has an arsenal of match grade hunting rifles or benchrest rifles. If you do then by all means go ahead and feed them with ammo made with bushing dies.
In the meantime alot of good shooting ammo can be made for the rest of us with the dies we have sitting on the shelf right now. AND alot of that ammo will shoot good not because it has .001" runnout or .003" runnout but because through alot of experimenting the reloading has found the exact right powder, bullet, and seating depth combination.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have missed the whole point of the thread. He is only trying to solve the concentricity issue. We are not debating the merits of your or my reloading processes. We are (again) trying to solve the concentricity issue he has with HIS equipment.

He already knows that good ammo can be made with the dies he already has because he has been doing that. ..... He is trying to make great ammo and to solve a concentricity problem and I surmise he would like to do it in the easiest manner possible.... Like I said previously......... You can turn the necks on your brass and use your dies without the expander ball and it works fine. I have done this with great success. You can also tune factory ammo by adjusting seating depth. I do this for my hunting buddies and all of their factory rifles shooting factory ammo way less than 1/2 moa. The point I am making and it has been written in many publications is that the expander ball is a source for many accuracy problems. Using an expander ball creates a two step neck sizing process whereas bushing dies or turned necks to match your FL die will produce far superior results compared to expander buttons. This is a long range hunting website and it is dedicated to equipment and techniques to make this possible.

If you are shooting at 1000 yards and have an moa gun, you are basically aiming a 10.5" circle. If you are shooting a 1/4" moa rifle then you are aiming a little over a 4" circle. It is much easier to to hit the target when the aiming dot is smaller than the target vice the opposite.

Remember, the goal is to putthem into the same hole when testing (ie "groups" not "patterns").

James
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Help, concentricity problems.
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Concentricity? kc Reloading 9 04-05-2011 07:05 PM
Concentricity WV Sendero Reloading 13 02-16-2011 10:40 PM
Concentricity:How much ? J E Custom Reloading 45 04-08-2010 09:05 PM
Neck Concentricity MJF Reloading 0 08-15-2005 02:35 PM
Concentricity StrayDog General Discussion 10 10-06-2004 09:27 AM

Current Poll
Have You Ever Backpack Hunted?
YES - 62.34%
1,053 Vote
NO - 37.66%
636 Votes
Total Votes: 1,689
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC