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Help .010 off the lands??????

 
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  #1  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:51 PM
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Help .010 off the lands??????

I keep reading posts of were fellas say for example they shoot 210 bergers loaded .010 off the lands. My question is what type of tools do I need inorder to measure this and how do you do it?
Thanks for your help.

Bigbuck
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:20 PM
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Re: Help .010 off the lands??????

I would like to know also...i think you can cut the neck vertically with like a dremal cutoff wheel, then insert the bullet, chamber, so the bolt pushes the bullet against the barrel, then extract and measure?

But not 100 percent................
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Old 11-25-2009, 05:55 PM
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Re: Help .010 off the lands??????

One method out of a reloading manual I have is to take a fired case that has not been resized and the bullet you intend to use. Use a magic marker or other dye to mark the body of the bullet. Gently insert the bullet about 1/4 of the way into the empty case. Carefully chamber the round and then remove. The bullet may come back out, but will likely stick in the bore. Use a cleaning rod or other suitable tool to knock it out. The magic marker should be clearly rubbed off by the case showing how far the bullet had entered the case. You can then carefully insert the bullet back into the case for an overall length measurement. This may not work well if the case mouth is too loose fit around the bullet, in that case slightly resize it, just enough for a little neck tension.

This method is the "poor man's" way of doing it if you don't have the money for the right tools. I use a RCBS precision mic set, which will tell you more accurately and also will measure how much your brass stretches in your gun so you know how far to resize it.

Remember .010 off the lands is a good starting point, but no magic number. I suggest reading the article from berger about finding seating depth.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:11 PM
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Re: Help .010 off the lands??????

Hornady makes an OAL gauge called the "Lock n Load". It works really well and is super easy to use. I have both the Hornady tool and the RCBS precision mic and I found the Hornady to be the easier of the two. Thats my 2 cents.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:33 PM
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Re: Help .010 off the lands??????

What the above posters are saying is that you first have to find where the lands meets your bullet, then back off what ever amount you wish.

Several ways of doing that max OAL thing; the split case and soft seated bullet is one or you can simply use a wood dowel rod that will slide down the bore as I do. Close the bolt and use a knife blade to mark the rod square across at the muzzle. The remove the bolt, push the bullet you plan to use into the end of the chamber and hold it there, snugly against the lands, with a pencil. Push the dowel to contact the bullet point and mark it again. Measure between the two marks and that's your max OAL in THAT chamber and with THAT bullet. (I have both the Hornady Case Length tools and RCBS Precision Case Mic tools. Both types work okay but I have gone back to the old way because I find it consistantly more accurate.)

Seat THAT bullet, the same one, in a sized but empty case at that exact length. Keep it for a reference gage. Then load your ammo and make it ten thou, or whatever you wish, less.

You may not like the results of seating so close to the lands. Most factory rifles seem to prefer from .030" to four times that much jump. Many sporting rifle chambers won't even allow light-for-caliber bullets to be seated that far out.

Seating at, or even near, the lands is really a BR techique for use with their lightly held bullets. It makes up for their lack of any significant bullet pull/tension. Sporting ammo would likely come apart with routine handling if we load as the BR crowd does so loading long has little to offer us. AND, doing so can cause it's own problems.

Last edited by boomtube; 11-25-2009 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:44 PM
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Re: Help .010 off the lands??????

I have tried all the methods and have the following observations:

1. Splitting a sized case neck or slightly bending the neck of an unsized one where the bullet will slide in and out but with some tension was inconsistant for me. It was either the lands holding on to the bullet and pulling it slightly back out or the leade permitting a different depth due to very slight obstructions or the bullet being out of alignment. For gross measurements this will work if you throw out the out of line lows and highs and just take an average and are loading .050" off then you are close to OK

2. Using a cleaning rod where you insert the cleaning rod down to the bolt face (make sure the firing pin is retracted) and mark it and then insert and hold the bullet against the lands with a pencil or wooden dowel, and insert the cleaning rod down to the bullet tip, mark it and measure between the marks. Also inconsistant with the possible reasons being the inaccuracy of marking exactly at the muzzle


or the inaccuracy of measuring to the .001" between the marks


3. The Hornady LNL OAL Gauge is an excellent tool but it takes some practice and some give up before you learn how to get the same results everytime. It uses a modified case where the bullet slips in and out and a rod that goes through the center and pushes the bullet to the lands

insert the bullet keeping it back in the case


put the case in the chamber and push the rod in to push the bullet against the lands


measure either to the tip of the bullet or with a comparator


With some practice you can come up with the same measurements everytime. It depends upon the consistancy of the force you push the bullet against the lands. But, you need to allow for the headspace or head clearance of the modified case unless you drill and tap your own cases that fit your chamber.

4. The Sinclair OAL Gauge


only fit some of my guns and the knurl knob was extremely hard to tighten down enough to keep it in place on the rod, even made my own slot for a screwdriver but eventually gave up on it.


The best way I have found I will show you in the next post since there is a limit of 6 pics per post
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:00 PM
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Re: Help .010 off the lands??????

I have settled on the R P Tool 318-424-7867 r_reeves61@bellsouth.net shown here with the Hornady tool


It is a stainless rod with a brass tip with 2 locking collets. Well made and worth every penny of the $25.00 I paid for it 4 or 5 years ago.

You just insert the rod down to the bolt face (again make sure the firing pin is retracted) and lock the farthest collet


Retract the rod, remove the bolt and put a bullet to the lands, the Hornady makes an excellent tool to do this or you can use a dowel


Reinsert the rod to the tip of the bullet and lock the closest collet


Measure between the collets


The you can use that particular bullet to set the seating die with.

The advantage of this tool is that it gives you 2 hard clean surfaces to measure between and it will work with any gun any caliber. The most repeatable and foolproof system I have found.

Then all you have to worry about is the inconsistancies of the bullet ogives, the inconsistant seating depths that different bullet grips give, the inconsistant seating depths that different interior neck surfaces finishes give and how well your seating die is constructed.

EDITED TO ADD: I completely agree with this statement from boomtube

"You may not like the results of seating so close to the lands. Most factory rifles seem to prefer from .030" to four times that much jump. Many sporting rifle chambers won't even allow light-for-caliber bullets to be seated that far out.

Seating at, or even near, the lands is really a BR techique for use with their lightly held bullets. It makes up for their lack of any significant bullet pull/tension. Sporting ammo would likely come apart with routine handling if we load as the BR crowd does so loading long has little to offer us. AND, doing so can cause it's own problems. "
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Last edited by woods; 11-25-2009 at 09:03 PM.
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