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Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

 
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  #8  
Old 01-11-2011, 01:18 AM
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Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBruce View Post
Have you chrono'd the loads?

What bullet weight/powder type and charge?

What brand of primer?

Do you know for sure the primer pockets of the case are not enlarged?

Are your cases FL sized to the extent that they are actually moving forward at the strike of the fireing pin.?? Sometimes that can be the case even when loads aren't too hot. Excessive headspace in the chamber can account for this. Also, FL sizeing as per the die instructions can do this; especially when the chamber is a little long or large.

The pin strikes, driving the case as far forward in the chamber as it can go. Then the bullet is no longer .010 from the lands. The pressure tries to blow the primer back (and actually does) because the case head is no longer butted up against the boltface. When the pressure forces the case rearward enough to seat the primer again, it's already been flattened.

I can't say if that is the case in your particular situation, but I've seen it happen.
Up until this point this is the first time I have ever heard of an explanation such as this. It makes since and seems logical. Especially if savage happened to make this rifle with extra head space for varmit hunters who reload, which I would think they definitely had in mind. As far as the components go this is all first time fired full length sized brass. So as far as the primer pockets being to deep, shallow, or big I don't know? I did dechamfer and debur the case mouths. I did not debur the flash holes, and yes there are quite a few with some metal burs and uneven edges. As far as the other components I used CCI 200 large rifle primers varget and imr8208xbr. The three bullets I chose were 55 grain HNDY VMAX, 52 grain HNDY AMAX, and 55 grain Sierra HPBT. And no I have not chronographed the loads, that is the next item I plan on buying, it will be about 2 months before I can talk my wife into it. However if the chamber does have excessive head space how do I first of all verify that, and secondly what do I do to cope with or solve an excessive head space problem.
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  #9  
Old 01-11-2011, 03:42 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Thunder Basin, WY
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Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

Question and Answer:

Question; How many grains of Varget?

CCI primers should be good.

First fireing brass shouldn't have loose primer pockets. If you didn't ream them out and didn't deburr the flash holes excessively, then the brass is most likely good. One simple way to tell if the primers aren't deep enough is to just make sure they are below the case head when seated.

Your Question: If the chamber does have excessive head space how do I first of all verify that, and secondly what do I do to cope with or solve an excessive head space problem.

Answer: There are at least two ways to go about this.

One, take it to a qualified smith and have them measure the headspace with go/no go gauges.
If they find excessive headspace, have them set the barrel back and fix it.

Two, buy an RCBS Precision Mic for 22-250 (they're not expensive and easy to use/understand). Read the instructions and measure the headspace from a fired case. Compare this measurement to the chart that they provide. Next, measure the headspace from a FL sized and unfired case. The difference between the two measurments (fired vs FL sized/unfired) should only be a maximum of .003". If it's more than that, you're FL sizing too much and "compressing" the case too much. Even if the chamber isn't excessive, we can make it so by running the FL sizer in too deep over the case (bumping the shoulder back too far).

The Precision Mic also has some other functions and I highly recommend it.

We really only want to resize just enough that the case will chamber with a very very slight resistance. Any more than this is over doing it and can lead to primer flattening and even worse, case head separation!

I once had a 220 Swift with excessive headspace. It wasn't over the SAAMI specs, but it was on the high end. I had some handloads with flattened primers so I backed the loads way down till they weren't flat anymore. Little did I know at the time, so I continued to FL size as per the die instructions (you know, screw the die all the way down till it touches the shellholder type of thing?) Well, long story short; I started getting cases that would separate just ahead of the web, even with the reduced loads. I then found the Precision Mic and Neck Size dies. I neck sized till I absolutely had to FL size, and then only enough to chamber easily again.

In the end, I was able to bring the loads back up to where they should be and Wallaaa........no more flattened primers and no more head separation. I bought 500 cases and got about 6 to 8 reloads per case before I finally shot the barrel out of the gun. This little fiasco was about 20 years ago, I've been using the precision mic ever since on factory rifles.
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  #10  
Old 01-11-2011, 03:59 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 332
Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomtube View Post
"Are you using old winchester ball powder, I hear it can get a little ripe with age."

The crap we can hear is incredible, especially on the world wide web of wanna be experts who got the straght skinny from a guy who's neighbor once heard from a cousin that a fellow he worked with swore he had over heard in a bar in Montanna that Winchester ball powders get a little ripe with age. Forget it, there is very little difference.
That's funny, cause I could swear that I've read, on this site multiple times, the old ball powders aren't all that stable. Things like temp sensitive, etc. So then, what is it that these rumors get started? I think there is usually an explanation, even a grain of truth in there somewhere. I never claim to be an Authority, or Expert, I do have a little experience around firarms, and some reloading under my belt. I'm still learning, maybe you can educate this backwater Montanan, on winchester ball powder.

The powder I had a little trouble with wasn't ball powder, in fact the powder I ended up switching to is ball/spherical.
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Last edited by BigSkyGP; 01-11-2011 at 04:10 AM.
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  #11  
Old 01-11-2011, 11:05 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,452
Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBruce View Post
Question and Answer:

Question; How many grains of Varget?

CCI primers should be good.

First fireing brass shouldn't have loose primer pockets. If you didn't ream them out and didn't deburr the flash holes excessively, then the brass is most likely good. One simple way to tell if the primers aren't deep enough is to just make sure they are below the case head when seated.

Your Question: If the chamber does have excessive head space how do I first of all verify that, and secondly what do I do to cope with or solve an excessive head space problem.

Answer: There are at least two ways to go about this.

One, take it to a qualified smith and have them measure the headspace with go/no go gauges.
If they find excessive headspace, have them set the barrel back and fix it.

Two, buy an RCBS Precision Mic for 22-250 (they're not expensive and easy to use/understand). Read the instructions and measure the headspace from a fired case. Compare this measurement to the chart that they provide. Next, measure the headspace from a FL sized and unfired case. The difference between the two measurments (fired vs FL sized/unfired) should only be a maximum of .003". If it's more than that, you're FL sizing too much and "compressing" the case too much. Even if the chamber isn't excessive, we can make it so by running the FL sizer in too deep over the case (bumping the shoulder back too far).

The Precision Mic also has some other functions and I highly recommend it.

We really only want to resize just enough that the case will chamber with a very very slight resistance. Any more than this is over doing it and can lead to primer flattening and even worse, case head separation!

I once had a 220 Swift with excessive headspace. It wasn't over the SAAMI specs, but it was on the high end. I had some handloads with flattened primers so I backed the loads way down till they weren't flat anymore. Little did I know at the time, so I continued to FL size as per the die instructions (you know, screw the die all the way down till it touches the shellholder type of thing?) Well, long story short; I started getting cases that would separate just ahead of the web, even with the reduced loads. I then found the Precision Mic and Neck Size dies. I neck sized till I absolutely had to FL size, and then only enough to chamber easily again.

In the end, I was able to bring the loads back up to where they should be and Wallaaa........no more flattened primers and no more head separation. I bought 500 cases and got about 6 to 8 reloads per case before I finally shot the barrel out of the gun. This little fiasco was about 20 years ago, I've been using the precision mic ever since on factory rifles.
I don't think the chamber or excessive headspace is in the picture here. If anything, I'd suspect the chamber is cut short, rather than long. A good and simple test is to simply shoot a few factory rounds thru the barrel. You'll if something's wrong when you close the bolt (if things are too short). The easiest way to measure the overall head space is from a once fired case, and compair that to the specs on the case. And easy way is to simply take a piece of aluminum that's about .56" or greater, and drill and ream a hole about 9mm in the I.D. (size isn't critical as long it's in that area). Face it off square at both ends somewhere around 3/4". Use this to go over the neck & measure with a dial caliper. Now measure a factory loaded round. They should both be within a few thousandths of an inch. Of course you can also simply drop by a bearing outlet store and pick up an inner race close to these numbers. It will be square, and can be had for about $5.

Also, I think I'd do about five or six rounds with a generic 50 grain bullet with about 39.0 grains of H380. The 3031 load works in every savage I've been around, but if the chamber is small I think I'd drop back about three grains and see what happens. Does sound like an over pressure spike to me, but how and why is the question.
gary
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  #12  
Old 01-11-2011, 02:39 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Thunder Basin, WY
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Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

Yes, way too small of a chamber can also cause excessive pressure. However, I've personally never had that issue. If factory rounds chamber normally, then it's not too small.

The precision mic will also allow you to measure the headspace of loaded rounds. No need to pull the bullets, and can be used on factory cases for comparison purposes.
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2011, 03:41 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: greenwood, IN
Posts: 3,452
Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

I think every reloader needs to own the Hornaday chamber measuring setup as well as the headspace bushings. This will give you seating depth as well as shoulder deminsions. I still use an old Stoney Point gauge (both sets), but the Hornaday is newer with a different thread
gary
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  #14  
Old 01-18-2011, 02:17 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 152
Re: Flatning Primers and Blowing out Primers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
I think every reloader needs to own the Hornaday chamber measuring setup as well as the headspace bushings. This will give you seating depth as well as shoulder deminsions. I still use an old Stoney Point gauge (both sets), but the Hornaday is newer with a different thread
gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairie Dog50 View Post
I am currently working up a load for my dads savage model 12fv, chambered in .22-250. The gun is extremely accurate, on multiple trips with variety of loads .37 inch groups and smaller are very common. However the gun does have one problem, it keeps flatting and blowing out primers. I have tried reducing the loads in .5 grain increments, and this has not worked. I have triple checked to make sure that I am getting correct O.A.L. length measurements of the guns chamber. So after kicking around several ideas I think at this point I'm going to try seating the bullets deeper than what I normally do. Normally when testing ammunition in a rifle I always start at .010 of the lands, and until now I have not had a problem with it, and maybe this isn't why the primers are flatting out but it's the best I know to do at this point. Do any of you guys have a better idea???
I had similar problems in my .222 Rem. Thought case annealing had solve the problem, but then it had pop up again - even with lower charges. After firing I inserted a .224 decapping rod and there it was - there was a donut in the necks of all those cases which had shown execive pressure (just where the shoulder of the case start). The rod had easily inserter full lenght into all other cases which had no signs of high pressure. The conclusion is that when I insert the bullet in insert past the donut and when fired it causes a lot of pressure because the case neck cannot expand as much as it should.
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