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Double digit ES

 
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  #8  
Old 07-18-2012, 02:39 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Only have a moment here to reply to comments thus far... in no particular order. Thanks for the input all

Regarding bushing selection: when I mention .308" or .307" bushing, those are the two I seem to use most often. I'm not set on any particular one and I could have worded that a little better. my fault. One thing I do differently and failed to mention is AFTER neck sizing. I measure the ID of the finished neck with a shopmade plug. After struggling to accurately measure the ID of the cases, a machinest friend made up a set of 'plugs' turned to .0005" increments. She made 6 for me for the .284 including .2835, .283, .2825, .282, and .2815. Fitting the tightest one without forcing is how I determine a .002" or a .0015" neck tension. Don't know if this is correct but this is how I do it.

Regarding H1000: It may be on the horizon but I have 5 or 6 pounds of Retumbo yet to burn up.

As for annealing: It's on the radar but resource$ are not there at the moment.

and lastly, the muzzle blast affecting the chrono result: I made a plywood blast shield that is placed between the gun and the chrono. I set the chrono at the max distance the cables will allow and set the blast shield about mid way. the plywood is 30" wide by 40" tall (I had the piece cut to that dimension already) with a 3" wide x 8" tall hold cut in the center. The panel is canted away from the gun at about a 45 deg. angle with 2x3 legs to support it. I learned this trick with my old Shooting chrony Beta Master chrony. That unit was actually accurate BUT very succeptable to outside influences.

Again, thanks
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  #9  
Old 07-18-2012, 03:22 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E Coyote View Post
Only have a moment here to reply to comments thus far... in no particular order. Thanks for the input all

Regarding bushing selection: when I mention .308" or .307" bushing, those are the two I seem to use most often. I'm not set on any particular one and I could have worded that a little better. my fault. One thing I do differently and failed to mention is AFTER neck sizing. I measure the ID of the finished neck with a shopmade plug. After struggling to accurately measure the ID of the cases, a machinest friend made up a set of 'plugs' turned to .0005" increments. She made 6 for me for the .284 including .2835, .283, .2825, .282, and .2815. Fitting the tightest one without forcing is how I determine a .002" or a .0015" neck tension. Don't know if this is correct but this is how I do it.

Regarding H1000: It may be on the horizon but I have 5 or 6 pounds of Retumbo yet to burn up.

As for annealing: It's on the radar but resource$ are not there at the moment.

and lastly, the muzzle blast affecting the chrono result: I made a plywood blast shield that is placed between the gun and the chrono. I set the chrono at the max distance the cables will allow and set the blast shield about mid way. the plywood is 30" wide by 40" tall (I had the piece cut to that dimension already) with a 3" wide x 8" tall hold cut in the center. The panel is canted away from the gun at about a 45 deg. angle with 2x3 legs to support it. I learned this trick with my old Shooting chrony Beta Master chrony. That unit was actually accurate BUT very succeptable to outside influences.

Again, thanks
I misunderstood the OP.

I assumed 30 cal with a measured ID after sizing = .308". That would be a problem.

Sorry.
-- richard
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2012, 08:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: Double digit ES

2 digit extreme spreads are not necessarily bad for accuracy. For example a Berger 7mm 168 gr Match Grade VLD Hunting bullet leaving at an average velocity of 2785 fps with a 30 fps spread will have vertical shot stringing at 1000 yards of about 6 to 7 inches if all the bullets leave at the same angle and are perfectly balanced and shaped. As bullets ain't all perfect, the shot stringing will be a couple inches more from the very small spread in BC.

Most barrels producing best accuracy have their bullets leaving just before the muzzle axis reaches its highest angle up from the barrel whipping when its fired. This lets those with faster muzzle velocity leave when the angle's a bit lower than slower ones that leave later. This is called positive compensation and typically masks vertical shot stringing at the longer ranges.

You might try some Wolff primers; a favorite of competitors. Magnum primers oft times do not produce best accuracy with belted cases. My 30 caliber mag's shot more accurate with milder primers than hot ones. And when all else is equal, different lots of primers will produce different levels of accuracy.

Ask someone else to shoot your bullets through a chronograph's screens. If their spread's lower than what you get, you're not holding the rifle against your body with the same pressure for each shot. I've been a victim of that problem. It can easily cause a 20 to 40 fps spread in muzzle velocity.
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:34 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The cold part of Montana
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Re: Double digit ES

Sounds like the only things you have left to try is different primers and play with your seating depth again if you find a primer that works better. But you may also just have to live with it, I've alsways heard Retumbo is known for wide SD and ES
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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
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  #12  
Old 07-23-2012, 03:10 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tillamook, Oregon
Posts: 381
Re: Double digit ES

I've been fighting an ES problem working up a load for a friend in 300Win. We're using 215 hybrids and we started with Retumbo. First of all the load data was way off for Retumbo and we got a sticky bolt at relatively low velocity. As in everything else I've loaded Retumbo for, it had wide ES numbers too. Switched to H1000 and did a lot of load testing. In this rifle it did not like H1000 either, never had any ES's under 17fps consistently. Could not find the .5 to .75 moa accuracy we were after either. Out of desperation and wanting to stay with Hodgdon's extreme powders we tried H4831SC. I quickly saw the ES shrink way down and accuracy immediately improved. I realized that we had 3 firings on most of the cases so I annealed as well. Picky as I am, it wasn't quite good enough. I switched from Fed215GM primers to CCI 250's and shot a .5 moa group at 300 yards running 2800 fps with very low ES. Bumped up the load .5 grains to max for this rifle and shot 3 with an average of 2834fps and an ES of 6. The biggest contributor to the ES problem in this case was definately the powder. This week I will stretch to 750 yards and see how she does. You may just need to get away from Retumbo and find what your rifle likes.
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:35 PM
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Location: The cold part of Montana
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Re: Double digit ES

you might look at RL22, I'm working up a load right now with Matrix 168 VLD that so far is well under 1/2" at 100. 65gr and both REm 9 1/2m and Fed 215M where .3 seated 0.020 off the lands I'm going to use the 9 1/2m's for now since I have a bunch, and next is to try different seating depths, to see what it likes.
__________________
Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
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  #14  
Old 07-24-2012, 06:33 AM
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Posts: 2,114
Re: Double digit ES

In talking with folks shooting belted 28 and 30 caliber magnums in long range matches, every single one of them mentioned they had problems getting good accuracy with the slower powders and hottest primers that shot bullets out the fastest. When they used powders in the 4350 to 4831 range and milder primers, they got much better accuracy.

I had the same issues and quickly learned that winning the race to the target wasn't nearly as important as getting all the bullets to arrive there at the same place was. That works best for paper punching and I doubt any animal nor hunter will see any significant difference between bullets arriving on targets a long ways away a hundred fps slower.
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