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Double digit ES

 
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  #1  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:58 AM
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Double digit ES

Has anyone else experienced this? A wide ES with Retumbo? Briefly, here's what I have and have done yet I still get extreme spreads of 30 or more; never in the single digits.

100 pc of Hornady brass divided into boxes of 20 with 1 to 4 firings through each lot. All cases were trimmed to the same length after the first firing and none has exceeded .010" over that length since then. After the first firing all the necks were turned to the same thickness, .013." Most needed only a partial turning to achieve this and any that needed more than about 80% are not included in the boxes in question. Flash holes were reamed to be uniform. And before reloading, the brass is cleaned with a tumbler and SS media.

I FL size to move the shoulder back .0015 to .002" and use a neck bushing to achieve a neck tension of no more than .002," usually a .307" or 308". I don't use the expander ball.

All reloadings have been 71 to 73 gn of Retumbo powder with 72.6 being the lowest ES (28) and has shown to be the most accurate without pressure signs.

CCI-250 primers and Berger 168 VLD Hunting bullets;the bullet seated .020 off the rifling. (Seating determined using a method written about by someone at Berger and posted elsewhere here on LRH.)

Bullets are sorted and seated as shown in Shawn Carlock's video so thet the OAL - may vary but the base to ogive dimension is within .001". The necks are brushed and lubed similarly too. After the first firing of the cases, concentricity is usually within .001" of both cases and assembled ammunition.

The rifle barrel is a Hart, 26" 1/9 twist and the remainder of the rifle has had all the customary squaring, truing, bedding ect. The rifle is a Remington 700 in 7mm RM.

I couple weekends ago, I shot the last of the batch where I has the ES of 28. I've reloaded 20 the other night and yesterday I fired 5 through the chrono (CED M2) and the ES of those 5 was 67. I stopped right there. Routine was my norm; 1 shot every 5 minutes or so after 2 foulers (not counted)

Now here I am trying to figure out what's going on so I could adjust but my head has cramped. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E Coyote View Post
[...]
I FL size to move the shoulder back .0015 to .002" and use a neck bushing to achieve a neck tension of no more than .002," usually a .307" or 308". I don't use the expander ball.
[...]
It's my understanding that .303, .304, .307" all result in about the same neck tension.

But, .308" could be sufficiently less neck tension so as to cause your problem.

This could especially be an issue after springback and settling.

You might want to try stepping down .001" with your bushing.

-- richard
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:43 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
It's my understanding that .303, .304, .307" all result in about the same neck tension.

But, .308" could be sufficiently less neck tension so as to cause your problem.

This could especially be an issue after springback and settling.

You might want to try stepping down .001" with your bushing.

-- richard
I dont like retumbo because it seemed pretty inconsistant when I tried it in my 300 rum. One thing that should help you is if you anneal the brass before you size it. it will bring all the brass back to the same state. It may not fix the problem but it should help considerably
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:16 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Also, don't forget muzzle blast and other things can skew your chrony readings. If it groups well, try some at long range.

I'm not a fan of annealing unless you have a valid reason for it. ...which you may. In fact, I may need to do it with my 300WM load using 225 Hornady's and 230 OTMs. H1000 has been more cosistent MV while Retumbo gives me more MV and better groups.

My son fired these 2 shots at 953 yds last Sunday after an equally centered cold bore shot at 650 yds. These were 225 Hornady's on top of a compressed 79 grains of Retumbo at 2785 and 2794 fps.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:25 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

[QUOTE=I'm not a fan of annealing unless you have a valid reason for it. [/QUOTE]
why are you not a fan? IMO its just one more step toward consistancy that is easy to do. But I would like to hear the argument against it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:39 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Your experience with Retumbo and the Berger 168 sounds a lot like what I got into.
Your case prep and reloading routine sound pretty much like mine except we don't turn case necks. We did anneal cases after every second firing. We changed up brass and primer brands hoping that would help. I was never able to get ES under 40. We finally started load development with H1000 and found a load that worked with ES running around 14. The velocity also went down but the load was accurate and decided we could live with it. Dont know if this helps but good luck with the Retumbo.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:17 PM
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Re: Double digit ES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkamike View Post
why are you not a fan? IMO its just one more step toward consistancy that is easy to do. But I would like to hear the argument against it.
No argument against annealing when it's needed.

I prefer to use good brass, moderate cartridges, moderate loads, no turn neck, and no annealing as much as possible.

Like I mentioned, I've got a 300wm with Win brass and a stout load of Retumbo that could probably benefit in order to achieve more consistent neck sizing/tension for lower ES/SD on my MV.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt I'll ever need to anneal my 6br Lapua brass.

-- richard
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